jetjr Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Onlt a few rotary pumps will claim ok for pertrol too and no you can definitely NOT use diesel transfer pumps. Mcnaught is one good rotary and not cheap........just sold a good one too at clering sale. Played with a few options in the past, most simple options were very slow. Any electric types that suit petrol are for engine supply and often 50lph to 100 lp HOUR. Bigger are mag coupled and very expensive The rotary is a big unit and does need to be held firmly of it can tip drum over, a filter maks it worse. Air is OK but suggest not a 12 v type, unless its a safe distance away. Your pressurising petrol and a small spark is a problem if nearby. Make sure pressure is regulated. Pressurizing a drum full of fuel shouldnt be taken lightly.
skeptic36 Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Skeptic36: Thanks for the lead. I've emailed the Ecan Man for details of his pump ie max lift capability, hand pumps to transfer 20 litres etc. !! Matt, Unless you are prepared to elevate the container or pressurise it, then don't bother with it. The pump idea is only designed to start the thing siphoning. I think it would work well for refuelling a boat at a jetty. My original plan was to pressurise it, but the cap has a valve in it to allow air in while it is emptying, so there is no room to fit an air inlet there, which meant that I would have to drill the container, so I got cold feet on the idea given it cost over $200. What I am doing now, works really well although it appears I will have to put a pole in 9meters from my hangar and move the winch/ pulley set up there, if I want to be legal.
SDQDI Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Illegal to fill 200 l drums, $5000 fine for you, $25000 for petrol station, better to go to bulk depot, they will exchange empty drum for full one, or bring it to you.To transfer to plane, low pressure air is your friend and really cheap, just look at how a garden weed sprayer works, can be scaled up to work with any container with a few fittings through a bung same thread as your container and an air source at max 4-5 psi. Must be regulated air if powered compressor is used. My setup will transfer fuel fast and no fuss or remove fuel using venturi to create vacuum in drum if over mtow. For small containers like 20l jerries, a few pumps from an airmattress type pump would make ideal air supply, just make sure a tap is on end of hose to control fuel flow into Mr funnel, probably could be made light enough to take touring also. Andrew Andrew none of our bulk depots carry Mogas in 200l drums so filling them is the only option, seems silly filling 20litre jerrycans just to carry them around the corner to empty them into a 200 litre drum. Here is a couple of pics of my setup. Please note the 'not to be used to fuel aircraft' warning. I welded the frame up so that I could take it on and off the ute while full with the forks. It was originally a 200litre tank but a blocked breather reduced it to 160 litres now. I earth the frame to the ute and then use the earth lead to the plane.
jetjr Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Nice setup but that pump is well over $500 alone Local aviation fuels man says he can buy new Avgas drums empty pretty cheap, mount 4 onto a steel skid and strap into position. Pretty sure it is legal to fill them at fuel depot - not service station. I think its OK to transport 4 x 200l in trailer or ute too.
skeptic36 Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Nice setup but that pump is well over $500 aloneLocal aviation fuels man says he can buy new Avgas drums empty pretty cheap, mount 4 onto a steel skid and strap into position. Pretty sure it is legal to fill them at fuel depot - not service station. I think its OK to transport 4 x 200l in trailer or ute too. Nice work SDQDI Given that it is easily lift able on those forks, does it really need the pump? I like to filter my fuel last thing before it gets into the tank (mr funnel) , no risk then of wasps or other impurities getting into the hose or nozzle. 1 1
Gnarly Gnu Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Air is OK but suggest not a 12 v type, unless its a safe distance away. Your pressurising petrol and a small spark is a problem if nearby. A 12v electric fuel pump off an EFI car could be the go, although I'm not sure if the flow rate would be sufficient? These submerse in the fuel so sparking isn't the issue. The fuel acts as as a lubricant so don't run them dry. Turning a handle is so 19th century, only a greenie would want to do that. 1 1
apm Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Ok, never posted pics before, so see how it goes. Air side parts cost about $20, just a few pvc fittings not even glued as only low pressure, I used 25mm but 19mm probly ok. top bit is homemade pressure relief from bits in the workshop, (easily made from pvc, a ball from old mouse and light spring, for max 6-7 psi release). inlet air fitting has tube extension going through the pvc cross, when end cap is removed (this end is better a bit longer) and higher air pressure used vacuum in drum is created. air is either from the old 12v foam marker compressor (high volume low pressure pump) or workshop compressor with air regulator. Fuel side is just a bung with steel pipe to bottom of drum, 19mm camlocks on filter & tap end & cap to keep clean, allows hose/filter to be removed. camlock cap can go on tap or drum spear. works great. drums can be refilled by anyone with DG licence so fuel truck drivers can do it. if they wont they're just being lazy. Andrew 1 1 2
SDQDI Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Nice work SDQDIGiven that it is easily lift able on those forks, does it really need the pump? I like to filter my fuel last thing before it gets into the tank (mr funnel) , no risk then of wasps or other impurities getting into the hose or nozzle. Gravity would be fine but I am mostly refuelling out of the back of the ute and not always at home. Also another note, take care if selecting a plastic fuel tank as most of the ones readily available are designed for diesel and will work for a time with unleaded before deteriorating and sending horrible deposits out with the fuel! A 200 litre avgas drum will be the best solution and is what I was aiming for until I got this tank. I've used washed out (with petrol not water!) 200litre oil drums and actually have one stored at Hillston but don't like recommending that. And no matter how much you intend to NOT use ethanol blend fuel make sure your hoses are designed for ethanol. Just saw apm's post and that looks neat:yes:, certainly makes economical and practical sense.
jetjr Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Concept is great but Id keep that induction motored compressor a long way away, especially if pressurised vapour blowing off PRV There was a little hand pump called "goat throat" for transfering fuel - slow, expesnsive but light and would work OK. Used pump hand pressure to pressurize drum They make Billy goat adapter for external air to drive it They seem to have AU distributor in lab industry EFI pumps are high pressure and fairly low flow, similar to electromagnetic facet types
Cosmick Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 From a Jerry Can http://www.tanamipump.com.au/
apm Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Concept is great but Id keep that induction motored compressor a long way away, especially if pressurised vapour blowing off PRV Yeah. I don't use it with compressor sitting on drum, I have about 20' air line to keep it away,just put it there for the photo. but also never seen PRV open, as I always keep air pressure at 4-5 psi so PRV is only as safety valve, gets messy if the drum is presurized too much. If you must use a compressor with no regulator make sure to only put a very small amount of air in drum at a time, pressures build up fast when drum is full and you only need a little air to move lots of fuel.
ricky m Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 I use a 20litre metal jerry with a tanami pro pump and only need a bicycle pump to get good flow (solid clip on bike pump) control of flow is through fuel gun i got from masters...
poteroo Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 I use a 20litre metal jerry with a tanami pro pump and only need a bicycle pump to get good flow (solid clip on bike pump) control of flow is through fuel gun i got from masters... Tanami pump works a treat for me too. No power problems as I use a small foot pump - good for out bush - lightweight - no static problems either. The hose can be inserted into a filter funnel if you like. I needed 3m hose to have some slack on a Brumby high wing. It takes me just under 2 mins to transfer 20L PULP from ground level into the aircrafts tank. Sure beats juggling a jerrycan while perched on a stepladder.
old man emu Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Just an addendum to my Post #25 above. If you have any empty paint spray cans, start the conversion to refillable, then give the can a really wash out with an appropriate solvent until the can is good and clean. After that, proceed with inserting the tyre valve stem as depicted in the video. Using a valve core tool, remove the valve. Fill the can 3/4 full with the type and colour of paint that you would need to touch up your plane's paint work. Refit the vale core and pressurized the can to 80 - 90 psi. With that level of pressure in the can, the liquid won't dry out. Solids in the paint will fall to the bottom of the can over time. That's why you have the mixing balls in paint cans. If you can get bulk penetrating oil like WD40, or liquid lanolin lubricant, you can make yourself some refillable pressure cans for these liquids, too. OME PS: Why doesn't the paint in a pressure can dry out? It is all to do with the relationship of a liquid's vapour pressure and the pressure of the gas above the surface of the liquid in a container. Interesting sideline reading. 1
matt walsh Posted October 20, 2015 Author Posted October 20, 2015 Nothing like the true Aussie spirit of helping out. Fantastic reponses and very worthwhile comments and suggestions. Thanks everybody. Cosmic, Rick M and Potteroo: The Tanami pump looks a treat and has a plastic container model (I initially thought they were only for metal jerry cans meaning new containers!!) local price is about $75 and use of foot pump sounds convenient and simple. Also no electricity involved. APM: like your ingenuity in making the air system and looks simple but effective. Jet JR: I checked Billy Goat pumps and look simple and easy to use but understand they are expensive around ,$160?? SDQDI: great set up and would like to be on acres and have similar set up. To all, thanks. The Tanami pumps looks appealing and modest cost. I might tinker with fittings to caps of my container to construct a sir pressure arrangement,(but might be lazy and pick up a Tanami!!). PS: My enquiry arose because I am currently working in Sri Lanka and found a decent steel Japanese rotary pump for a good price and thought I would bring it home. Based on all your helpful advice, I'm now convinced of merits of the pressurised container system so no sale to the SL's this trip!! Regards Matt Walsh 1 1
matt walsh Posted October 20, 2015 Author Posted October 20, 2015 OME, just read your suggestion, great idea and some fun to boot. More workshop time in order for these refillables. Do you have a preferred sealant or putty for around the valve stem/can interface?? Should I suggest to my wife about a refillable whipped cream can?? And another thought, refillable shaving cream can for me. The list is possibly endless!! 1
old man emu Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Last time I suggested whipped cream to Old Ma Emu, I got a clip across the back of the head and the cold shoulder for a week. The video says any sealant that will take up to 100 psi. Some blokes cut the valve stem shaft out of the rubber and solder the shaft to the tin can. I got a tube of this from Supercheap I used it to bodgy up a broken corner of an engine part on my bike, and it's remained intact for ages. I reckon it would do to seal a valve stem into a can. OME 1
matt walsh Posted October 20, 2015 Author Posted October 20, 2015 Thanks, reminds me about a punctured fuel tank in my Subaru liberty wagon whilst on the Tanami Track from Halls Creek to Alice Springs 15 years ago. Tank to be removed for welding but is a saddle style and would need to take off diff etc to remove tank. Mechanic said to plug hole with a similar "metal" putty until we returned to Melbourne. The plug still sealing tight when I sold our beloved Suby 10 years later. Will have a crack at this system. 1
ricky m Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Tanami pump works a treat for me too. No power problems as I use a small foot pump - good for out bush - lightweight - no static problems either. The hose can be inserted into a filter funnel if you like. I needed 3m hose to have some slack on a Brumby high wing. It takes me just under 2 mins to transfer 20L PULP from ground level into the aircrafts tank. Sure beats juggling a jerrycan while perched on a stepladder. Nothing like the true Aussie spirit of helping out. Fantastic reponses and very worthwhile comments and suggestions. Thanks everybody.Cosmic, Rick M and Potteroo: The Tanami pump looks a treat and has a plastic container model (I initially thought they were only for metal jerry cans meaning new containers!!) local price is about $75 and use of foot pump sounds convenient and simple. Also no electricity involved. APM: like your ingenuity in making the air system and looks simple but effective. Jet JR: I checked Billy Goat pumps and look simple and easy to use but understand they are expensive around ,$160?? SDQDI: great set up and would like to be on acres and have similar set up. To all, thanks. The Tanami pumps looks appealing and modest cost. I might tinker with fittings to caps of my container to construct a sir pressure arrangement,(but might be lazy and pick up a Tanami!!). PS: My enquiry arose because I am currently working in Sri Lanka and found a decent steel Japanese rotary pump for a good price and thought I would bring it home. Based on all your helpful advice, I'm now convinced of merits of the pressurised container system so no sale to the SL's this trip!! Regards Matt Walsh I tried the tanami pump for plastic and it was a night mare for me to seal i split two sealing caps as had to tighten that hard:( tanami exchanged for metal one and with no quible... Now works easy and only a few slow pumps and its away... Well worth getting
rankamateur Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Thanks, reminds me about a punctured fuel tank in my Subaru liberty wagon whilst on the Tanami Track from Halls Creek to Alice Springs 15 years ago. Tank to be removed for welding but is a saddle style and would need to take off diff etc to remove tank. Mechanic said to plug hole with a similar "metal" putty until we returned to Melbourne. The plug still sealing tight when I sold our beloved Suby 10 years later.Will have a crack at this system. I used need-it on my magna before last when a spot weld pulled out causing the tank to leak, sold it about 8 years later with the tried and tested patch still installed.
matt walsh Posted October 20, 2015 Author Posted October 20, 2015 Ricky M, thanks for the heads up about Tanami pump models with plastic cap for plastic fuel containers. Sounds like you changed to using metal jerry can and the Tanami with cap for metal jerry's. Is this correct? I'm assuming Tanami don't make a metal round cap for plastic containers. You said that you had to tighten the plastic caps so much to seal and hold pressure, that they split. Could you put a rubber O ring on the thread to improve sealing? If the Tanami isn't reliable or durable for plastic then I have to buy new metal containers which though not a big issue, is less appealing.
matt walsh Posted October 20, 2015 Author Posted October 20, 2015 Rank, I think I uses "Knead It" or similar name also. It was in a round clear plastic tube and you tore off a piece, worked it with fingers then plugged hole, might be a "Selleys" product. They also made same style of material for use in water tanks. pretty amazingly good stuff.
matt walsh Posted October 20, 2015 Author Posted October 20, 2015 Potteroo, what type of container do you use with your Tanami pump; metal jerry or plastic?? have you had problems with breaking caps like Ricky M advises in Thread #44?
ricky m Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Ricky M, thanks for the heads up about Tanami pump models with plastic cap for plastic fuel containers. Sounds like you changed to using metal jerry can and the Tanami with cap for metal jerry's. Is this correct? I'm assuming Tanami don't make a metal round cap for plastic containers. You said that you had to tighten the plastic caps so much to seal and hold pressure, that they split. Could you put a rubber O ring on the thread to improve sealing? If the Tanami isn't reliable or durable for plastic then I have to buy new metal containers which though not a big issue, is less appealing. Hi yes changed to metal can.. Tried differnt seal better but still leaked.. May of been bad mould in can i brought.. From experiance i would go metal... Not cheap set up but safe and works .. Jerry can $70 tanami pump $75 nozle $60 ish bike pump $15. But works really well.. Therre is one that flylight in uk sell £40but frieght is same :( there has pump built in... http://140142.33.ekmpowershop.net/quick-transfer-aircraft-re-fuelling-pump-188-p.asp
matt walsh Posted October 20, 2015 Author Posted October 20, 2015 Ricky, I might start with plastic and see how that goes. Sounds like Tanami gives good customer service if I experienced sam cracking as you did. The pump will fit any brand jerry can wont it or do you have to mate it with a Tanami brand metal jerry? Regarding your system, is the nozzle like a tap and allows the fuel flow to be regulated? Does the nozzle empty into a Mr Funnel and into the wing tank? How is the nozzle kept in the funnel whilst fuel flows? Do you have to hand hold the nozzle from standing on steps?? Does it have to be a nozzle or a cheaper brass tap say a gas fitting or plumbing tap? Poteroo: do you place the discharge hose into a Mr Funnel on your high wing tanks? and if so how is it retained there? Any ideas for an inline file, maybe a plastic RyCo automotive type filter, so that hose can go directly into tank??
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