Using rotary hand pumps for refueling with MoGas

[ricky m]

Hi metal fits all old army style.. plastic need to match brand of 20litre can.. Here is a pic of mine.. Tanami were great i brought original from a dealer who was no longer a dealer and only had plastic fitting pumps as old stock.. Yet tanami just asked me to return pump i broight and then sent back a pro version for metal cans...

 

 

 

[ricky m]

My tank is on the side and that does make bit of pain as cant get full flow with with the small travel mr funnel i use.. so have to balance pressure from pump and triger control to stop funnel over flowing (would be embarasing reporting a fuel spill to the enviro department at YPJT !!!as i am one of the reporting officers there ....lol!!! hence y strugling to lift and pour fuel was not an option). Still since jabiru now advise only keeping mogas for two weeks i have been using avgass for last six weeks (ish).. :( :) so it makes great mower can ....(dont say a word the wife said enough)

 

 

[matt walsh]

Ricky M , yes a fuel spill would be embarrassing and another act for Jabiru dislikers to waggle their fingers against!!!!

 

Re your comment on balancing pump pressure and nozzle control, is your procedure; pump up the jerry can to certain pressure or no's of strokes of pump, then operate the nozzle and discharge the fuel into funnel. When it ceases to flow ie pressure lost then nozzle off and re pressurise and repeat cycle???

 

I note your Perth address. Have you flown to Rottnest Island? I went over in a VH Cessna and it was pretty interesting landing.

 

 

[Marty_d]

I was considering a roof-rack mounted setup where the wings are carried flat (side by side or partially overlapped) on top of the car... my thought was, with a step ladder, I could fill the tanks at the servo on the way to the field. Not sure if it's viable and will depend on whether I end up getting hangar space or not.

 

 

[IanR]

Tanami pump works a treat for me too. No power problems as I use a small foot pump - good for out bush - lightweight - no static problems either. The hose can be inserted into a filter funnel if you like. I needed 3m hose to have some slack on a Brumby high wing. It takes me just under 2 mins to transfer 20L PULP from ground level into the aircrafts tank. Sure beats juggling a jerrycan while perched on a stepladder.

I also use a Tanami pump - and incorporated a filter in the hose - works fine

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I was considering a roof-rack mounted setup where the wings are carried flat (side by side or partially overlapped) on top of the car... my thought was, with a step ladder, I could fill the tanks at the servo on the way to the field. Not sure if it's viable and will depend on whether I end up getting hangar space or not.

pulling the wings off your car and fitting them to the plane when they are full of fuel? sounds like hard work

 

 

[Marty_d]

pulling the wings off your car and fitting them to the plane when they are full of fuel? sounds like hard work

Ah, but the mounting racks were going to be swivelled so you park your fuselage next to the car, swing the wing around and bolt it on, un-clamp from the racks, put a stand under the tip and lift, then drive out from under and move to the other side of the aircraft.

 

Being a lazy sort I try to minimise manual labour whenever possible.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I would want to reduce the weight above your head

 

 

[Peter G]

I was wanting to make this setup but reading all your posts do you think its going to be ok to fill from a servo and use in Aus?

 

the only difference I was going to use the $400 blue unleaded fuel pump I see on ebay like Mark posted the link to..

 

The Tank I was thinking of buying a Truck fuel tank and not making one or using a 44gal

 

the Pic was from a bloke in USA

 

 

 

[Marty_d]

I would want to reduce the weight above your head

But that's the thing. If I were to engineer this right, the roof racks are taking all of the load until the wing is actually bolted to the fuselage, at which point you're only lifting the tip slightly (lots of leverage there so no real weight) until it's on a stand and you can put the struts on. There's no point at which you're trying to balance a wing above your head unsupported.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

but if you are the wingtip who is attaching the bolts?

 

 

[matt walsh]

I also use a Tanami pump - and incorporated a filter in the hose - works fine

Ian, what's your nozzle arrangement at the end of discharge hose? Do you insert the hose directly into fuel tank? do you have a tap or valve to control flow once the jerry can is pressurised?

 

 

[matt walsh]

I was considering a roof-rack mounted setup where the wings are carried flat (side by side or partially overlapped) on top of the car... my thought was, with a step ladder, I could fill the tanks at the servo on the way to the field. Not sure if it's viable and will depend on whether I end up getting hangar space or not.

Hi Marty, do I understand that you remove both wings from your Gazelle and store elsewhere? sounds like a significant task and open to things going wrong ie linkages, strut mounting bolts. Then getting the wings aligned etc. Are you unable to simply fold the wings back and store the plane in this configuration. I reckon the folded arrangement is not much wider then the bare fuselage. It all souns like a lot of work to me !!

 

 

[matt walsh]

I was wanting to make this setup but reading all your posts do you think its going to be ok to fill from a servo and use in Aus? the only difference I was going to use the $400 blue unleaded fuel pump I see on ebay like Mark posted the link to..

The Tank I was thinking of buying a Truck fuel tank and not making one or using a 44gal

 

the Pic was from a bloke in USA

Hi Peter, the portable fuel tanker and pump looks a ripper. My understanding about fuel quality if that it goes "off" or loses some of its octane rating if stored for several weeks and that fresh fuel is always preferred. I'm curious if pilots refuelling from tanks or 44 gal drums, consume that much fuel in weeks? if not, is the fuel sitting in the tank for long period. Maybe this is not an issue and I'm just interested as I it would take me 2-3 months to use 200litres of PULP.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Hi Marty, do I understand that you remove both wings from your Gazelle and store elsewhere? sounds like a significant task and open to things going wrong ie linkages, strut mounting bolts. Then getting the wings aligned etc. Are you unable to simply fold the wings back and store the plane in this configuration. I reckon the folded arrangement is not much wider then the bare fuselage. It all souns like a lot of work to me !!

Hi Matt, no, I'm still in the building process (CH-701 not Gazelle) - and at this stage not sure whether I'll have somewhere to hangar the plane or whether I'll be trailering it around. This idea is a "just in case". The 701 does have a folding wing option but it's damn ugly, involving a large tube fair through the cockpit and underneath the wing root. If I do end up having to trailer it, I think that having a swivelling adjustable roof-rack mounted system that supports the wing while bolting is a better option than racking them on the side of the trailer and having to lift them into position (especially if I'm by myself).

 

but if you are the wingtip who is attaching the bolts?

I'll do up some drawings when I get a mo. Picture is worth a thousand words...

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Hi Peter, the portable fuel tanker and pump looks a ripper. My understanding about fuel quality if that it goes "off" or loses some of its octane rating if stored for several weeks and that fresh fuel is always preferred. I'm curious if pilots refuelling from tanks or 44 gal drums, consume that much fuel in weeks? if not, is the fuel sitting in the tank for long period. Maybe this is not an issue and I'm just interested as I it would take me 2-3 months to use 200litres of PULP.

My understanding is fuel stored in a sealed container like a drum will last much longer than fuel in a fuel tank that is vented (such as in the aircraft or car tank). There is a good article here http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&title=The-Life-of-Fuel&A=112237

 

 

[matt walsh]

Hi Matt, no, I'm still in the building process (CH-701 not Gazelle) - and at this stage not sure whether I'll have somewhere to hangar the plane or whether I'll be trailering it around. This idea is a "just in case". The 701 does have a folding wing option but it's damn ugly, involving a large tube fair through the cockpit and underneath the wing root. If I do end up having to trailer it, I think that having a swivelling adjustable roof-rack mounted system that supports the wing while bolting is a better option than racking them on the side of the trailer and having to lift them into position (especially if I'm by myself).I'll do up some drawings when I get a mo. Picture is worth a thousand words...

Thanks for explanation Marty. This might sound like a really daft idea, could you have the wing as one complete unit and mount on a circular plate. This plate would sit on another circular plate attached to "roof" of cabin frame. Two plates bolted together with centre bolt to enable wing to swivel and line up with fuselage. Wing still has struts to connect to bottom bracket on fuselage. Locking bolts to retain wing in normal or transport configuration. Its obviously very non standard so requiring engineer approval etc. Probably complicated etc but just an idle thought.

 

 

[matt walsh]

My understanding is fuel stored in a sealed container like a drum will last much longer than fuel in a fuel tank that is vented (such as in the aircraft or car tank). There is a good article here http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&title=The-Life-of-Fuel&A=112237

Thanks HF for the reference and it makes sense. Easy to keep drum and tanks sealed up till fuel is needed.

 

 

[IanR]

Ian, what's your nozzle arrangement at the end of discharge hose? Do you insert the hose directly into fuel tank? do you have a tap or valve to control flow once the jerry can is pressurised?

I just have the basic pipe with the inline filter. As its only 20 litre cans I just need to be careful - and with the pressure relief valve its easy to cut off. I don't have over-wing tanks though.

 

 

[lyle janke]

I was wanting to make this setup but reading all your posts do you think its going to be ok to fill from a servo and use in Aus? the only difference I was going to use the $400 blue unleaded fuel pump I see on ebay like Mark posted the link to..

The Tank I was thinking of buying a Truck fuel tank and not making one or using a 44gal

 

the Pic was from a bloke in USA

hi

i have something similiar on drawing board instead using 200lit drum . the pump used if it is an e-bay issue is not sealed & is advertised as diesel only . the blue e-bay model is listed as suitable for petrol but has a disclaimer "not to be used to pump avgas" what is the difference to normal fuel?? or is it a legal issue what would 1 need to to modify to overcome legal issues for private use ?

 

the only issue that come to mind immediately is static /earthing issues with pump/installation . the pump already has an extra threaded hole on body of pump so i thinks manufacturer already uses this pump in an aviation environment elswhere . my research so far identifies the main delivery fuel hose also as being an issue . is the e-bay version suitable for an aviation environment & able to disperse static build-up maybe change hose to suitable version & create earthing to unit & problem solved

 

any thoughts as to whether i`m on right track

 

any aviation units i`ve found are more than double the price & make the task of refuelling not cost effective any more for the casual flyer who wants to get away from fumbling with gerry cans

 

lyle

 

 

[Peter G]

Hi Peter, the portable fuel tanker and pump looks a ripper. My understanding about fuel quality if that it goes "off" or loses some of its octane rating if stored for several weeks and that fresh fuel is always preferred. I'm curious if pilots refuelling from tanks or 44 gal drums, consume that much fuel in weeks? if not, is the fuel sitting in the tank for long period. Maybe this is not an issue and I'm just interested as I it would take me 2-3 months to use 200litres of PULP.

Hi Matt, yes it sure it a nice set up, I was looking at doing that for ease of use as I'm in a wheelchair and I cant lift 20lt fuel drums let alone the pain in ass job of filling up 3x separate 20lt tanks then driving them in my boot to fuel up my plane..

 

having the trailer setup for me is easy to full up at the servo then fill my plane same as at a bowser filling my car so for me its so easy.... I hear ya on using a 200lt tank with fuel going off but the club here in bendigo have the same set up with what looks like a 2000lt tank and It gives no issues of fuel going off in the club planes...

 

As long as it has a good fuel filter system its a safe way to carry fuel and fill my wings up..

 

The semi tanks I was looking at using are about 200lt but it would still be a great setup with a smaller 100lt tank for 1-3 weeks of flying and I guess it depends on how often we have time to fly :)

 

anyway its the setup I will be making for sure, I have the trailer already and just have to sort the Tank, pump, battery and glass filter and its happy days lol

 

I kind of got of the subject question on the rotary pump but reading everyones input I wanted to ask the question for some feedback on the idea and was thinking of a rotary pump instead but settled for the easyer ep pump. for me its to do things easy rather than struggle and spill fuel on myself trying to lift it... haha

 

Pete

 

 

[Keith W]

Hi Matt i fuel my Gazelle from 10 litre fuel containers, not so heavy a lot easier to handle than the 20 litre ones, seeing as each tank only holds 24 litres you rarely need more than 2 per wing,as I fold the wings to store my plane I siphon the remaining fuel from the tanks when I finish my flying you can't get it all out usually leaves about 5 litres in each tank, I put the left over fuel in my car and by a fresh lot next time I go flying, using a pump is a good idea if your transferring a lot of fuel but seeing as we only use about 40 litres each time is it really worth the effort, cheers Keith.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Thanks for explanation Marty. This might sound like a really daft idea, could you have the wing as one complete unit and mount on a circular plate. This plate would sit on another circular plate attached to "roof" of cabin frame. Two plates bolted together with centre bolt to enable wing to swivel and line up with fuselage. Wing still has struts to connect to bottom bracket on fuselage. Locking bolts to retain wing in normal or transport configuration. Its obviously very non standard so requiring engineer approval etc. Probably complicated etc but just an idle thought.

Hi Matt, not a daft idea but not suited to the 701. There was another thread that showed an aircraft with a similar setup, it had a one-piece wing which rotated for trailering. Of course it makes the aircraft bloody long as half the wing length is sticking out ahead of it.

 

 

[old man emu]

My understanding is fuel stored in a sealed container like a drum will last much longer than fuel in a fuel tank that is vented (such as in the aircraft or car tank). There is a good article here http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&title=The-Life-of-Fuel&A=112237

The reason fuel goes 'off' is contained in the words of that article stating that the lighter components of the fuel evaporate. When these "light" weight molecules go, then ignition of the fuel/air mixture is not as good because the light-weight ones ignite first.

 

The reason that the light-weight components evaporate from a container is due to the Partial Pressure of the fuel/air mixture at the surface boundary of the liquid. The molecules can leave the liquid phase and float off in the atmosphere when the Partial Pressure of the liquid mixture at the surface is equal to the atmospheric pressure of the environment. (Temperature of the liquid and air has an effect, too, but I'm considering a situation where the liquid and air are at the same temperature.

 

The only way to stop the evaporation is to raise the atmospheric pressure to stop the molecules in the liquid from jumping off the surface. In a sealed container, this is done by increasing the pressure of the air in the space above the liquid. That's why you can store paint in a pressure pak for ages.

 

To keep fuel 'fresh' - pressurise the fuel drum.

 

OME

 

 

[matt walsh]

Hi Matt i fuel my Gazelle from 10 litre fuel containers, not so heavy a lot easier to handle than the 20 litre ones, seeing as each tank only holds 24 litres you rarely need more than 2 per wing,as I fold the wings to store my plane I siphon the remaining fuel from the tanks when I finish my flying you can't get it all out usually leaves about 5 litres in each tank, I put the left over fuel in my car and by a fresh lot next time I go flying, using a pump is a good idea if your transferring a lot of fuel but seeing as we only use about 40 litres each time is it really worth the effort, cheers Keith.

Hi Keith (and is that Keith Wigg who rebuilt his Gazelle after damaged at Avalon few years back???), I agree that 10 litre containers are easy to lift and hold whilst filling. And that's' only 2 per tank. I have a few 10 litre containers and find them to be relatively slow to pour from as the smaller containers usually don't have a opposite end breather hole. I could create one I guess to speed the flow. I am well supplied with 20L containers so would need to purchase more 10 Litre containers. That was another reason for a system suiting my existing containers ( although the Tanami pump may require metal jerry can purchases)

 

Also I was want to avoid using steps or ladders for refueling so pumping from a container on ground was appealing. I can remove wing tank caps and insert Mr Funnel whilst standing on the ground. This also avoids need to take my mini steps for refueling at other strips. Nearly always, I can find something to stand on to refuel however I'll bet the time I leave the steps at Penfield, I wont locate any object at another strip to stand on!!!!

 

You mentioned that you are wheel chaired and I reckon its fantastic that you make the effort to aviate. Cant be easier and probably fiddly to make it all work. I respect you. I agree that the pump set is not cheap, but once assembled, will last for ever and probably very easily sold on Ebay etc. You could connect the pump though the trailer permanent wiring and car power so no connections each time and one less task. The use of a truck fuel tank is good idea and the tank should have fuel outlet plumbed already for easy connection to the 12v pump. Reading about fuel storage and quality, seems that 100 or so litres wont deteriorate much and maybe pressurize the tank somehow as per OME's comments above.

 

Another option might be to cut the neck of a steel jerry can and have it welded to the truck fuel tank, either replacing the factiory cap and neck or separte hole. The you could use a Tanami pump to pressurise the tank and avoid the electric pump. Tanami could advise if their pump would deliver enough pressure to drive the fuel but probably likely to. So thats another ption for yoyur refueling tanker set up!!

 

Regards Matt Walsh