tecnamdave Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Confidence for a pilot is a bit like money in the bank. You have to build up enough in the account until it begins paying some useful interest. Then you use the interest to get what you want whilst not having to draw down on the capital, so it is there and continues paying interest.Confidence comes from flying frequently, but also from having instructors who recogise what you are apprehensive about and take steps to get you through your fears by explaining things properly first, then demonstrating them with you in the aeroplane, then getting you to demonstrate them without the assistance of the instructor, to the point where you are so familiar with the manoeuvre it is no longer an issue. Stall and recovery is a typical case in point. Many, many students have an intrinsic fear of this "perilous and dangerous manoeuvre" because they don't know what causes it and how to recover. Once it is explained as a knowable and repeatable phenomenon, in which you can maintain control of the aeroplane at all times, then the fear is replaced by knowledge - and knowledge is power. With knowledge comes confidence. Turbulent air isn't fun to fly in at all, and we need to remember that basically we are all flying for fun - even instructors are flying for fun because you can't make any sort of living out of teaching people to fly RA-Aus aeroplanes. A good instructor will recognise when the air has become such that the student has stopped learning and will call a halt to the flight before the student loses the confidence he or she has been trying to gain for the lesson. The instructor will say something like:- "In my opinion the air has changed and we are now at a point where it isn't fair to try and teach you to fly in these conditions so we will land and call it a day". (I have yet to meet a student-pilot who hasn't agreed with this statement!) The student will appreciate the instructor's judgement because it reinforces their own appraisal of the conditions - and thus their confidence is enhanced. It is also quite likely the student was simply too afraid to suggest stopping ("my instructor can fly in this so I should be able to, too"). Instructors can fly under far more taxing conditions that students, and there is always a commercial imperative to make the aeroplane "earn its keep" but the needs and progress of the student must take first place in these conflicting requirements. It is basically unfair and discourteous to try and teach a student in air they simply cannot learn in. It's also commercially very poor business practice. Every pilot sets their personal limit as to the conditions in which they are prepared to fly or not. Some are very conservative, and live long lives although they may not accrue as many flying-hours as those of a more "adventurous" disposition. Others are bolder, and live more exciting, but possibly shorter, lives. "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots" is a truism which contains much wisdom behind its obvious triteness. To gain confidence, fly as often as you can. Fly in the best conditions you can. Build up that "bank-account", little by little, until it begins paying interest. It is said the student pilot begins learning to fly with two buckets; one marked "Luck", which is full, and one marked "Experience" - which is empty. The trick is to fill the bucket marked "Experience" before the bucket marked "Luck" is empty. A third bucket, marked "Confidence", is attached to the bucket marked "Experience", and (miraculously) they fill at exactly the same rate. Experience comes from flying regularly and flying well, with good decision-making allied with a knowledge of when it is better to be on the gound than in the air. Most pilots are obssessed with how many flying-hours they have already done. For quite a few of us the better yardstick is "how many flying-hours are left in me", and the corollary of that is "how many of the flying-hours I have already done that I treasure as great moments in my life?" An experienced pilot is a confident pilot, and pilots gain experience by having experiences - both good and bad! Good experiences build up the confidence in that bank-account. Bad ones force you to make a small withdrawal. Maximise the good experiences and keep the bad ones to an absolute minimum. Trust your instructor's judgement, but if you feel it is flawed, then be prepared to question it. A good instructor will not be offended but will appreciate your concerns. Instructors really crave feedback from students; continued dumb acquiescence isn't exactly reassuring if the instructor suspects the student is having difficulties but refuses to acknowledge them. Find instructors who recognise your personal limits and stick within them. If you're not happy with the conditions, say so now rather than sticking with it because the instructor seems quite happy to grind away. Above all, recognise that instructors are not God - they are simply experienced pilots who have an ability to pass on knowledge to the next generation of pilots, and who have a desire to do so for whatever reasons. They are guides on a journey of discoveryand most of them want their students to be the best pilots they can be. Most students are just happy to find an instructor who relates to them and recognises their limitations and doesn't ask them to exceed them. The student-instructor relationship and dynamic is critical to the building of confidence. Like students, instructor are human, and fallible too. Very well said Dieselten. I could feel the confidence building just by reading your post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shafs64 Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 I have spoken to the CFI and we are going to start working on it next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cscotthendry Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Shafs: Staying away from the caffein before flying is a good move. Caffein is a diuretic (makes you want to pee) and is imcompatible with long flights unless you're flying something with onboard toilets! Drink water in moderation on any flight to keep yourself hydrated. Dehydration, even in a mild form reduces your mental acuity and reaction time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shafs64 Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 I will be putting this all to the test next week. when I spoke to the CFI he said that its a common issue. he told me people would cancel booking because of light winds and cloud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camel Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 I will be putting this all to the test next week. when I spoke to the CFI he said that its a common issue. he told me people would cancel booking because of light winds and cloud. You are a strong willed person even to discuss this and I have a lot of respect for you, after I had a close call I never thought I would fly again and that was about 18 years ago. It is about reducing risk and being in control at the level you feel comfortable and don't let other dictate what to do unless they are an instructor or a very experienced pilot and know your capabilities. Good luck and enjoy ! don't forget to enjoy the view. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmick Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 I have done the one circuit and race back to the safety of the ground I shortest flight ever. Also received some strange looks back at the flying school. early days my leg would start shaking just before T/O and I would be so tense I would stop breathing!Jabiru7252 thanks for sharing make me feel I am not alone. Yes the uncontrolable shake in the leg (right rudder) first solo and after a long break or a different plane. Just ask Neil (Jaffa) how nervous I get. Neil would say "Relax Cozi". White knuckles on the stick. Deep breath. One thing that helps me is what Icarus said above. Study the strength of the aircraft your flying avg +4, -2 at MTOW. Look at old Silverado at GOFLY, over 7000hrs last time I looked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Where you fly also had a bearing on turbulence ect, at Boonah we are surrounded by mountains which are on the great divide. Pilots either have to get comfortable flying in turbulence or fly somewhere else to fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff13 Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Shafs, I have just been reading back through the Solo thread. I am now more aware that you have had this issue a fair while and I am sorry that I didn't pick up on it earlier. In that thread you compare your lack of confidence to riding a bike. I think along with everything said in this thread we actually hit on the answer back then. Mate it is all about time in the saddle. You are beating yourself up because you don't have the confidence that you do on the bike. You are at least facing the issue and as has been said here by many more experienced pilots than me. Time, different conditions, learn your equipment, take a more experienced pilot/instructor. The answers are all right there in front of you. Just remember when we learned to ride bikes and started filling our experience buckets on them we were younger and more bullet proof. Do not worry about being more nervous now that is just the experience bucket telling you that there is plenty more to learn. The offer to go flying is still open if you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shafs64 Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 You are right Geoff. need that plan of attack and not do a runner when it gets hard like all the other times. Cosmic are you talking about that tecnam do they call it Silverado. And what hanger are you in Geoff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icarus Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Here is a tutorial on turbulence. http://www.recreationalflying.com/tutorials/safety/wind_shear.html#turb_speed Very interesting scale Very severe turbulence is said to be above 1.5g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmick Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Yeah Shafs, the two Tecnam Echo's Goldie (younger) and Silverado. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cscotthendry Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 You are a strong willed person even to discuss this and I have a lot of respect for you, after I had a close call I never thought I would fly again and that was about 18 years ago. It is about reducing risk and being in control at the level you feel comfortable and don't let other dictate what to do unless they are an instructor or a very experienced pilot and know your capabilities. Good luck and enjoy ! don't forget to enjoy the view. I would go even further with the sentiment of don't let others dictate what to do. When you are PIC, make your own choices and decisions, no matter how experienced the other pilot is. What is right for them may not be right for you. I followed another pilot into a situation on the basis that he was a very experienced pilot. Everything turned out just fine, but it could have ended in tragedy just as easily. I learned from that, to make my own choices based on my knowledge and experience. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff13 Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 82 Mate. I am hoping to go for a fly tomorrow. No start time planned, just when I wake up, been a big week at work. Have been feeling a bit flat all week so if I don't feel right I will just go and play with the plane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shafs64 Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 Thanks Icarus interesting read. hay Geoff I thought you retired? I wanted to fly tomorrow but I have a fully booked weekend. those two tecnams get a good work out but I prefer the sling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff13 Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 I did but the kids have been under pressure lately so I have been helping out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icarus Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I'm probably stating the obvious, but although some parts of an aircraft designed for +4, -2 g may fail at 7-10 g under test, it doesn't mean you can assume that there is more safety margin built into the aircraft as a whole than the limits specified by the manufacturer. The aircraft is the sum of many parts and being able to exceed the ultimate design capacity of one part, say the wing spar, may not tell you much about the strength the spar attach bolts and fittings for example. However, a properly designed and flown aircraft can probably deal with a lot more turbulence than most pilots would want to put up with.rgmwa http://www.recreationalflying.com/tutorials/regulations/ASTM_F2245-07_Airplanes.pdf I believe this document is one of the standards accepted by CASA as a standard for LSA Page 4 has info on structure and loads. I read it as a safety factor of 1.5 is applied unless otherwise set out in the list . Have a look and see what you think. eg a 600kg aircraft designed for + 4g - 2g 600kg x 4 g= 2400kg x ultimate load safety factor of 1.5 = 2400 x 1.5 = 3600kg so the aircraft needs to be tested to be able to withstand 3600 kg for 3 seconds? not sure if the list containing the special load factors also gets multiplied by 4g ie push pull control system joints. at 4g would experience say 10kg of force x 3.3 = 33kg so those joints would need to be designed to withstand 33kg rather than 10kg x 1.5 = 15kg ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmwa Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 LSA's are typically designed to the ASTM standards. The 1.5 load factor is applied to the basic LSA load limits (+4, -2) to provide a reasonable safety margin against failure of a component or permanent deformation of the structure. It's sometimes called the `engineer's margin'. LSA's are rated for +4g, -2g, so the ultimate design limits are +6g, -3g. A typical aerobatic aircraft is rated for +6, -3 or +9, -4.5 ultimate. I've seen some advertisements for LSA's quote the +6, -3 figure but it's misleading. Loading the structure above its nominal capacity is not safe. This extract from an article by Dick van Grunsven (written in the context increasing the gross weight of an experimental aircraft) explains it better than I can. Who Owns the Margin? It seems common practice among homebuilders to second-guess the factory engineers, particularly regarding gross weight increases. Because of all of the added features, empty weight creep erodes the aircraft’s useful load. The simple solution for the homebuilder is to “pencil in” a new gross weight limit. “It’s only 100 pounds (3.7 percent) more; how much effect can that possibly have?” Imagine this example: You are on a mid-size airliner with a gross weight of 270,000 pounds. Just before leaving the gate, the captain comes on the PA system and says: “We’ve overbooked more than usual today, so we’re going to assume that the factory engineers over-designed this airplane and allowed an abundant safety margin. We’re going to take off at 280,000 pounds instead. So move over, there are 50 more passengers coming on board.” Run the numbers; it’s the same over-weight ratio as simply pencilling in an additional 100 pounds to the gross weight of an RV-10. Along with gross weight increases, some builders take the same liberties with horsepower increases and speed increases, betting their lives on the assumption that the airplane is designed with a huge margin of safety—it is really far stronger than it needs to be. This is not really true. Certificated aircraft, and well-designed kit aircraft, are designed to withstand limit loads at specified maximum weights. During testing, they are subjected to ultimate loads, which are higher than design limit loads by a specified margin. Yes, there is a margin between the design and ultimate strengths. But that margin belongs to the engineer. He owns the margin. It is his insurance against the things he doesn’t know or can’t plan for, and the pilot’s insurance against human error, material variations, and the ravages of time. Wise pilots respect this design safety philosophy and leave this insurance policy in effect by operating strictly within established limits. rgmwa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 The 1.5 load factor is applied to the basic load LSA factors (+4, -2) to provide a reasonable safety margin against ..... or permanent deformation of the structure. Nope. +4 is the limit load factor so permanent deformation will occur beyond that - just beyond it or some way beyond it depending on the type of structure and any additional margin (additional to that 1.5 ultimate factor). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmwa Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 You're right DJP. rgmwa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icarus Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Just so we are clear. In no way am I advocating or implying the aircraft should be flown to or above maximum g. Just trying to give shafs some numbers to go off so he can see that the bumps are not near the aircraft limits 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearo Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Shafs, Its interesting reading this, because I am one of those pilots. I am still shit scared of flying, have an RPL, about to do the PPL flight test. However, when I go flying on those nice calm mornings when there is no turbulance I just love it and cant get enough of flying. So I have become a smooth air pilot. The danger of that is if I get caught in conditions that are not great, I could end up in trouble. I am now forcing myself up in conditions that test my personal limts, but dont exceed it. If the conditions exceed my personal limits, I try and and get an instructor to go for a flight with me. Step back 15 years, you would not get me in a plane period. In fact, if it were not that I was faced with loosing a job at the time, I would probably still not be flying. I had to be sedated to get me onto a commercial jet flight. What I have realised is, that it does not matter what anyone says here. It may 'gee you up' mentally, but does not help when you are actually up there. I have more than 150 hours up now, I should be getting over this, but I am not. However, I am starting to learn that if I tackle each individual issue about why I am scared, then I learn to deal with that issue. It does not take the fear away, it just enables me to deal with it, allows me to rationalise it in my head. For example, I was scared of doing steep turns in gusty conditions because I thought the gusts would roll the plane into an unrecoverable spin, so I went up with an instructor and did stalls in 60 degree turns. I now know what the plane does in steep turns when it stalls, and I had no issue doing the recovery, but alas I am still scared of steep turns in gusts. A few times now, I have been close to tossing it in, but something is driving me to continue. I like being challanged, perhaps thats what it is. All I can suggest, is that you need to isolate all those things that scare you, and address them individually. Its hard to do, trust me. I am realising that the fear of flying is not one thing, but many. For me, overall it was a fear of not being in control, and that one big thing adds up to many little things that you are not in control of, like turbulance! So mate, be honest with your instructor, nail down those fears and address them. It takes a while, but you will slowly start to nut them out. I mix it up with about half a dozen instructors, so they all pick up little things. Also, do youself a favour, pick those calm days and go out an do some solo stuff. It reminds you why you go flying, and why you battle through the fears. 3 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shafs64 Posted November 2, 2015 Author Share Posted November 2, 2015 Thanks for sharing Pearo. would also like to add that I had the same issue with airliners would get tanked on the plane to deal with it. But I can't do that when I am the pilot. But that part has gone now I have no issue with PAX flights now just have to work on my own flying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf jessup Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 You will be fine Paul, just work through it over time, it will get better the more you fly 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearo Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Thanks for sharing Pearo. would also like to add that I had the same issue with airliners would get tanked on the plane to deal with it. But I can't do that when I am the pilot. But that part has gone now I have no issue with PAX flights now just have to work on my own flying. Well it looks like we may be currently in similar positions. I did my first ever commercial flight in may this year without being scared. I was pretty pleased with myself, but its something not a lot of other people will understand! Its only take 40 years to get to this point! Its the little things that count though, today for example. Getting ready for the PPL flight test I wanted to practice some some stuff, so I got out the POH to check some procedures in flight when there was turbulance. I actually took my hands off the controls to do other stuff whilst the plane was getting bumped around! Fair enough, it was not very much turbulance, but its one little step in the right direction for me! 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Well it looks like we may be currently in similar positions. I did my first ever commercial flight in may this year without being scared. I was pretty pleased with myself, but its something not a lot of other people will understand! Its only take 40 years to get to this point!Its the little things that count though, today for example. Getting ready for the PPL flight test I wanted to practice some some stuff, so I got out the POH to check some procedures in flight when there was turbulance. I actually took my hands off the controls to do other stuff whilst the plane was getting bumped around! Fair enough, it was not very much turbulance, but its one little step in the right direction for me! I realy admire your determination to jump over the hurdles that face you. Good on you 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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