Right of way ??

[Yenn]

A landing aircraft has righ of way, but it has to be landing, not ten miles away and just trying to ensure he won't be held up.

 

I gave a taxiing call at gladstone and immediately had a call to say a plane was joining the circuit. I said I would wait, but after a few minutes I called him up and he was still 5 miles away. I taxiid to the end of the runway, including a backtrack and saw him joining downwind as Itook off. A time waster, but he wanted it to be my time.

 

 

[Russ]

just repeating to be clear...........i called entering and back tracking........i was approx 1/3rd down the runway when ol mate calls joining circuit etc etc etc, then i called to make contact, nothing came back, then he appears in my vision 2 oclock ( i'm in me jab, so rh wing was obscuring vision for a time ) i call again, he calls turning base, i call again...nothing, he turns final, i call, he tells me to vacate........i politely ( sort of ) tell him to pull his head in and go around.

 

When he turned base, i was expecting him to then either ....come down the dead side, or.....do a RH turn and extend his downwind......he actually deviated, and flew down the deadside.

 

maybe...........he having 2 engines, the rules are different for him...........yea right.

 

 

[facthunter]

Well, entering the runway was perfectly normal. You called stating what you were doing. Fine, we presume he received it/ was on the same frequency as you at the time? Can't be sure can we? You haven't had an acknowledgement so far, from him. The runway is occupied by you so he can't safely land, so he has to go around. Flying down the dead side seems like the thing to do as he has the best view of you and the runway. I can't see what having 2 engines has got to do with anything. Once you have turned base the ability to lose time is limited. The best way to extend is make the downwind longer. Nev

 

 

[jetjr]

The second engine, raybans and epaulettes makes you a more senior pilot with greater access to regional strips

 

 

[facthunter]

Does that have any bearing on what went on here?. I must be missing something. Nev

 

 

[Roundsounds]

I think there might be some information missing in this story. How long does it take to backtrack 2/3 of the way down a runway? Given the aircraft called entering the circuit, wouldn't there be sufficient time to complete the backtrack and depart? If I heard someone calling to say they were backtracking on runway xx, I wouldn't necessarily acknowledge the call, unless it was worded such that a response was required.

 

As a side issue, I have noticed an increasing number of pilots entering and backtracking along a runway before they have completed their pre-takeoff checks, then hold on the threshold whilst they complete them - often in the lined up position!

 

 

[facthunter]

Once you are in the lined up position, within a short time you should commence the take-off roll or clear the runway. It's an expectation that is universal, almost. Sometimes you may be given a clear to line up and HOLD so you don't have a clearance to take off, obviously. You might also hold till a previous departing aircraft is airborne. Nev

 

 

[jetjr]

The point is the request to vacate the runway, clearly he thought sending a jabiru off into the bush was less important thn his approach.

 

Ive had some similar experiencs with small twins and self important pilots too.

 

Like announcing 3nm final, for downwind landing. I had done three legs and all calls for the reciprocal runway and was on final too.

 

He demanded i go around, I refused. After talking to him once on the ground, seems he didnt want to backtrack.

 

 

[Russ]

I think there might be some information missing in this story. !

 

 

[Peter008]

Could it be that the radio calls that you made were not received by the approaching aircraft? I have had a similar issue where a spray plane joined circuit on base whilst I was on the piano keys after doing the regular calls. He assured me afterward that he did not hear my calls. I deduced that maybe because I was not airborne the radio was not as effectual as it could have been.

 

 

[DrZoos]

These pilots still have eyes and they should be checking the runway while on downwind... And on base....they had plenty of time to see ..

 

Do we rely only on radio...hell no

 

One word of advice for all..a white aircraft sitting on the centerline or the keys is much harder to spot than an aircraft 1 m off the centerline or not on the keys.... Keep that in The back of your mind if you prefer not to have a twin land on your roof...cause you probably wont get to tell us about it after the fact. And this thread plus my incident with the chopper that near killed me proves the radio even when used isnt necesarily heard

 

 

[Roundsounds]

ATSB report on a fatal collision on the runway at Hoxton Park several years ago:

 

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1999/aair/aair199900970.aspx

 

 

[Geoff13]

And at a lot of regional airfields, you do not even need a radio.

 

 

[Spooks]

Out of interest, do you guys do a 'visual of the circuit' by completing a 360' turn in the direction of the circuit prior to proceeding to the hold?

 

I've noticed during my training that a lot of pilots in the UK either do not do it or do their turns in the opposite direction to the circuit.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Out of interest, do you guys do a 'visual of the circuit' by completing a 360' turn in the direction of the circuit prior to proceeding to the hold?I've noticed during my training that a lot of pilots in the UK either do not do it or do their turns in the opposite direction to the circuit.

No but i turn my plane in a direction that i can check the entire active side... with particular focus on mid downwind onwards and if i had to backtrack, i would visually check the entire downwind carefully...

I have a PCAS and the amount of times a visiting aircraft is in or near the circuit with no radio is astounding...so visual check is critical...I presume they are broadcasting accidently still on a wrong frequency (which i have done twice)...sometimes im monitoring 118.1 and accidently broadcasting 118.9 ..Im hearing all the calls making all the calls and there is no one on 118.9 to tell me what a goose i am... can easily happen when you come through several close CTAF's

 

Its probably not as likely for you more remote people, but then you would possibly have more pilots without radios or on the wrong frequency all together. eg Unicom v CTAF

 

 

[jetjr]

I reckon some more accomplished pilots assume no one is operating from smaller regional strips and there is no active runway.

 

Admittedly they are travelling fast and maybe not listening to CTAF for long before arrival

 

Pretty common to see them do straight in approaches irrespective of wind.

 

 

[Contact Flying]

Helicopters and crop dusters are supposed to operate away from those flying the normal circuit in the US and are to give way to all other aircraft. No radio is required at our airports with no tower controller. That doesn't apply to this situation, but I found that waiting on all others didn't really slow me up that much. There is nothing more comforting than landing with no other aircraft ahead or behind, especially behind. This won't work, of course, if all hang back. Try hanging out there and doing a little flying while things clear next time. See if you like it. I did.

 

s

 

 

[Kamloops]

Before entering the runway I call and ask if any traffic is in the area.....my choice to do so.

 

The guy coukd easily have called you and extended his downwind....or after having turned final he couod have called a miss and gone around.

 

But I am also wondering what you were doing for that long on the runway.

 

You maybe pissed at me for saying this.....but get going man.

 

Its the active runway, not the ramp.

 

Sounds like you weren't properly prepared to take off before entering the active....and must taxi the back track slower than a granny with a walk could walk it.

 

My last backtrack I doubt lasted more than 15 seconds.....say another 5 seconds to turn and line up....call my intent and firewall it.......well under 30 seconds total.

 

My last actual runsay take off I didn't even bother to back track as i had from the intersection about 4100 feet....which is vastly more than required.

 

My home strip is only 2700 feet of grass in total.....so 4100 of pavement seeems very long to me.

 

To back track the other 3000 to me is ludicrous.

 

I do backtrack completely a strip i fly into a lot....but its 1800 feet total is damn tight as it is.

 

So yes there i back track. But never ever ever would consider rolling onto the active without asking about traffic in the area or in the pattern itself.....and calling my intent.

 

And i monitor the frequency righteous from after engine start up and turning the radio on....and through the run up on the ramp etc.

 

I realize my seneca may taxi faster than your plane....but still not that fast.

 

And I also frown on runway run ups....I've seen people do them,and just shakemy head.

 

Its a runway after all.....not a runup way.

 

If it was your own private airstrip that is differentof course.

 

 

[Kamloops]

I too always closely look for other aircraft in the pattern.

 

And I will always give a plane in the pattern the right of way over me safely sitting on the ground.

 

What if that plane suddenly has an emergency like losing and engine and has to keep it in tight....meanwhile I am just back tracking and now in the way of their emergency.

 

I would not care if i was in a G650 and the plane in the pattern was a cub....I would still wait for them....but maybe that is just me.

 

 

[Contact Flying]

I get the feeling from the posts here that Australia requires radio even at remote fields. In the US, and I think Canada is the same, radio is only required at tower fields. Uncontrolled fields are called uncontrolled because there is no Air Traffic Control personnel there. At uncontrolled fields, and even tower fields in Visual Meteorological Conditions, see and avoid is the rule. Hear and avoid is not possible when even one aircraft has no radio and hear and avoid does not satisfy the rule when all aircraft and the tower have radios.

 

But there are greater issues than the rules, radio required or otherwise. To safely operate in any airspace requires that we give priority to what see and misstrust what we do not see, regardless of what we hear. We would be safer not to back taxi if we see an airplane in the area. We would be safer not to try to land on a runway with an airplane on it. This is just common sense.