Airport Radar coverage - how do can i tell?

[Precog]

Hi guys, was just reading one of the latest flight safety articles on departure/airborne reports and got me thinking - how can you tell if the airport you are departing has radar/surveillance service? Is there an entry in ERSA or something?

 

As i understand its not so simple as some class g and d airports can have radar e.g. bankstown; on the other hand; some class c and d aerodromes don't have radar e.g. alice springs/albury.

 

 

[Pearo]

Class C has radar, Class D does not. Class G had no radar or towered operations.

 

Most Class D airports have a radar feed, but it comes via canberra, so the delay means it cannot be used for separation. All Class D airports use procedural separation. The giveaway here is the transponder code.

 

Worth noting, if you are departing Class D CTR into Class C CTA, you will need to obtain a code on the ground, then provide a departure report in Class D, then an airborne report in Class C.

 

 

[facthunter]

You can bring up a map on line showing Primary Radar Coverage of Australia. Your altitude affects it. Anyone wanting to come here unnoticed would avail themselves of it. Nev

 

 

[Birdseye]

ATC primary radar coverage is very limited, generally gated at about 45-50 nm range. Secondary radar provides up to 200nm, height and terrain dependent, but is also pretty sparse outside of the East Coast 'J'. For example, leaving Perth coverage there is no radar until within range of Adelaide, all ADS between two.

 

To prevent any uninvited guests, the military rely heavily on 'over the horizon' HF detection methods.

 

 

[Pearo]

Also, re airports like Alice Springs, It is Class D so therefore no radar and separation is procedural.

 

The Class D CTR is from SFC to 3500', and Class D CTA from 3500 to 4500. If you depart into the Class D CTA you give a departure report.

 

Above 4500 is Class C airspace, so the separation is RADAR/SSR, so if you depart into the Class C CTA you need to give an airborne report once in Class C

 

 

[Pearo]

Also, given the question was about airborne/depature reports and specific airports, I am assuming here the question is not about physical radar coverage, but rather how its used in Class A, C and G airspace/airports?

 

If not, then please ignore my drivel.

 

 

[Kiwi303]

https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/sites/default/files/shado/Divisions/Sydney%20Division/Southern%20Highlands%20and%20Tablelands%20Regional%20Group/INFRASTRUCTURE/AirTrafficControl-29Sep2011.pdf

 

page 11

 

A bit hard for Kiwis to sneak in, but from Indonesia it doesn't look too bad for aero smuggling...

 

Until you realise up there is where the Jindalee OTH HF military radar is pointed.

 

 

[Precog]

Thanks for the replies guys. Now im more confused than ever :)

 

Class C has radar, Class D does not. Class G had no radar or towered operations.

From the flight safety article they state "An Airborne Report is required on first contact with Centre, Approach or Departures after departing a Class C or D aerodrome with a surveillance service (for example, radar or ADS-B). So to me that reads that some class D aerodromes do have radar? If that is the case, how can you tell which ones do and which dont?

 

The fight safety article also says " non-controlled aerodromes allows for two scenarios—one where there is no surveillance available and one where surveillance exists and aircraft identification is expected with the Departure Report." Again, to me that is saying there are some non-controlled aerodromes (class g?) DO have surveillance (radar?) . If this is true, again how can you tell?

 

Also, re airports like Alice Springs, It is Class D so therefore no radar and separation is procedural.The Class D CTR is from SFC to 3500', and Class D CTA from 3500 to 4500. If you depart into the Class D CTA you give a departure report.

 

Above 4500 is Class C airspace, so the separation is RADAR/SSR, so if you depart into the Class C CTA you need to give an airborne report once in Class C

Based on the radar coverage map that kiwi303 linked too, there is no radar at alice springs even at alititude. So even though you might be in class C airspace, there is no radar at alice springs. So am i right to assume that not all class C airspace has a radar service?

 

BTW, here is the flight safety article im refering too:

 

http://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/2015/11/demystifying-departure-reports/

 

 

[Happyflyer]

If you look at your transponder and an "R" or a light comes on it means the transponder has replied to a radar paint. You can be sure you are on some ones radar when this happens.

 

 

[facthunter]

Would that be the same with a TCAS? Nev

 

 

[Birdseye]

Thanks for the replies guys. Now im more confused than ever :)

"departing a Class C or D aerodrome with a surveillance service (for example, radar or ADS-B). So to me that reads that some class D aerodromes do have radar?"

 

Note the "or ADS-B" in that line above. In Class D the surveillance service might be ADS and not radar.

 

 

[ian00798]

You can have class c airspace without radar, for example Tamworth has non surveillance class c airspace. The best way to tell is in ERSA, under ATS communications services. If it is a procedural control aerodrome, then the will be a bit in the notes that says TWR provides tower and approach control services within class c and d airspace, for example look at Tamworth, Alice springs etc. Compare this to the similar section for the Gold Coast for example. Another good guide is if there is a seperate departures/ approach frequency that you transfer to after takeoff, it will be a radar aerodrome.

 

 

[ian00798]

Would that be the same with a TCAS? Nev

If your are outside surveillance coverage and there are TCAS equipped aircraft around, your transponder will still show interrogations, so this is not the best guide. An aircraft equipped with TCAS will send out interrogations regardless of the surveillance coverage, and your transponder will send a reply. That is why if you are transponder equipped you should have the transponder on and squawking altitude, as this will make you visible to TCAS equipped aircraft.

 

 

[dutchroll]

So am i right to assume that not all class C airspace has a radar service?

This is correct.

Class C airspace simply means there is an air traffic control service and everyone needs a clearance to be there. How that control is achieved - radar/procedural/ADSB - depends.

 

It's generally desirable for class C airspace to have radar (SSR) coverage but it's not always possible.

 

 

[Pearo]

Hey precog, been meaning to get back here and answer this but been focussed on the study for my PPL test. Not sure where you are at pilot wise, but I am pre-PPL, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. I had the same question as you about a week before you put it up here. I was lucky, because I was involved in this exact conversation with some ATC's in person just a few days before hand...

 

Before I go onto try and explain how I think it works, let me say this. My solution is to give an airborne report regardless. The only real difference is stating the altitude you are passing through so ATC can positively identify you on SSR. I state the altitude I am passing through even in Class G, its become a habit.

 

Now, my understanding of the difference between airborne and deptarure reports is this: If ATC ask you to change frequency, the on the new frequency you give an airborne report. If you depart Class D with procedural separation into Class C with Procedural separation, you will stay on the tower frequency. As soon as you are passed off to SSR class C the tower will pass you off to BNE or MEL Centre, and they will require an airborne report to positively ID you. Even when you get a transponder code on arrival, Centre will always ask you to report altitude so they can ID you.

 

FWIW, just too add confusion if you get passed off from MIL Class C to civilian Class C, you have to provide a report when you enter the new Class C!! Same stuff, (BNE APP, callsign, 8500ft) and Approach will always respond with QNH.

 

BTW: Can anyone confirm any class D that has surveillance? If so, do they require a unique transponder code or do you still use 3000?

 

 

[Happyflyer]

If you come from class C to class D the last C controller will hand you over, don't change code unless they tell you to. When approaching inbound reporting point in class G change from 1200 to 3000 then make inbound call. Read the ERSA and CASA guides for each class D aerodrome thoroughly beforehand.

 

 

[Pearo]

If you come from class C to class D the last C controller will hand you over, don't change code unless they tell you to. When approaching inbound reporting point in class G change from 1200 to 3000 then make inbound call. Read the ERSA and CASA guides for each class D aerodrome thoroughly beforehand.

But the AIP ENR 1.1 8 suggests that there is Class D airports with SSR. So if I transit Class G into Class D with SSR, do I need a unique code or do I use 3000? How do I know what class D airspace has SSR? My experience is limited to YBSU and YBAF, both of which use procedural separation.

 

 

[facthunter]

As far as I recall some operators are allocated their own codes. Others use the standard one. When you report altitude it enables you to be identified (to an extent) and confirms your transponder accuracy (re altitude). If they want you to change transponder code they will ask you to sqwark code 1234. There is a proper way to do this or you may activate codes as you alter yours to the required one. Nev

 

 

[Pearo]

Just noticed that this info is available on the VNC, ie, if you look at Coffs Harbour, VNC says that Brisbane operates class C above. Look at Alice Springs and it says that the tower controls the Class C above.

 

 

[Precog]

That's good to know...thanks Pearo.

 

 

[rage83]

Something to note that wasn't really mentioned here.

 

Radar coverage is pretty much irrelavent as it extends past the boundaries of most airspace.

 

What you need to be able to do is interprate VTC/VNC as to where the airspace boundaries lie.

 

And it also looks like a few people here are getting confused between Class C and Class D.

 

Class C is an aerodrome or airspace capable of radar separation.

 

Class D is an aerodrome or airspace not capable of radar separation. ie procedural.

 

Tamworth and Alice springs are both Class D aerodromes but they do also have above the Class D air space.

 

The Class C is radar controlled for separation. The class D is procedural for separation.

 

 

[Pearo]

Something to note that wasn't really mentioned here.Radar coverage is pretty much irrelavent as it extends past the boundaries of most airspace.

 

What you need to be able to do is interprate VTC/VNC as to where the airspace boundaries lie.

 

And it also looks like a few people here are getting confused between Class C and Class D.

 

Class C is an aerodrome or airspace capable of radar separation.

 

Class D is an aerodrome or airspace not capable of radar separation. ie procedural.

 

Tamworth and Alice springs are both Class D aerodromes but they do also have above the Class D air space.

 

The Class C is radar controlled for separation. The class D is procedural for separation.

Not what the AIP says. As stated earlier, its says that some Class C airports/airspace use procedural separation. Out resident ATC's have confirmed that some Airports (Tamworth for example) have no SSR separation.

 

 

[Precog]

"And it also looks like a few people here are getting confused between Class C and Class D.

 

Class C is an aerodrome or airspace capable of radar separation.

 

Class D is an aerodrome or airspace not capable of radar separation. ie procedural."

 

This is what Im trying to clarify for my BAK test because i dont think this is exactly correct. For example, Im pretty sure there is no radar in class c airspace just above/around alice springs class D. Listening to the liveATC at Alice for planes in class c around alice it sounds like its all procedural.

 

 

[rage83]

Thats because Tamworth is a Class D airport.

 

 

[Pearo]

Thats because Tamworth is a Class D airport.

With Procedural Class C above, just like Alice Springs.