Airport Radar coverage - how do can i tell?

[Precog]

From wikipedia on ICAO airspace definations:

 

"Class C: Operations may be conducted under IFR, SVFR, or VFR. All aircraft are subject to ATC clearance (country-specific variations notwithstanding). Aircraft operating under IFR and SVFR are separated from each other and from flights operating under VFR, but VFR flights are not separated from each other. Flights operating under VFR are given traffic information in respect of other VFR flights.

 

Class D: Operations may be conducted under IFR, SVFR, or VFR. All flights are subject to ATC clearance (country-specific variations notwithstanding). Aircraft operating under IFR and SVFR are separated from each other, and are given traffic information in respect of VFR flights. Flights operating under VFR are given traffic information in respect of all other flights"

 

Nothing in these definitions states that class c must be capable of radar separation.

 

 

[rage83]

I think you will find the reason behind the differing definitions is purly because of radar services.

 

I will have a look when i get home. I cant see the point in a procedural class C when that is exactly what Class D is.

 

 

[SDQDI]

I think you will find the reason behind the differing definitions is purly because of radar services.I will have a look when i get home. I cant see the point in a procedural class C when that is exactly what Class D is.

Tamworth does NOT have a reliable radar below 5000 and class c has a ll of 4500

 

 

[rage83]

which is why the class C has a lower level of 4500, because Class C is radar.

 

 

[ian00798]

Rage83, I control the airspace near Tamworth and I can assure you radar is not a requirement for class c. Tamworth tower have procedural class c from a045 to a085, it only becomes radar above a085 with centre

 

 

[rage83]

I stand corrected. Can you explain the difference between procedural class c and class d then ?

 

 

[rhysmcc]

From wikipedia on ICAO airspace definations:

"Class C: Operations may be conducted under IFR, SVFR, or VFR. All aircraft are subject to ATC clearance (country-specific variations notwithstanding). Aircraft operating under IFR and SVFR are separated from each other and from flights operating under VFR, but VFR flights are not separated from each other. Flights operating under VFR are given traffic information in respect of other VFR flights.

 

Class D: Operations may be conducted under IFR, SVFR, or VFR. All flights are subject to ATC clearance (country-specific variations notwithstanding). Aircraft operating under IFR and SVFR are separated from each other, and are given traffic information in respect of VFR flights. Flights operating under VFR are given traffic information in respect of all other flights"

That's the difference, it's based on movements of aircraft and number of PAX (whether an aerodrome is Class C or D), Class D isn't used unless associated with a Class D aerodrome.

 

 

[Pearo]

As a matter of curiosity, does procedural class C still require the use of a unique transponder code? I imagine it would given you can transit from procedural class C to SSR class C..

 

Also, did we ever determine if there are any Class D airports/airspace in Australia that use SSR?

 

 

[rhysmcc]

Define "use"? None use radar for separation but most have a basic radar display for situational awareness. This may be limited for low level aircraft depending how far the airport is away from the radar head.

 

 

[Pearo]

Depends which use you are reffering too.

 

If in procedural class C do you get assigned a transpoder code.

 

Class D airports is there any that use SSR for separation. Ie, as per AIP ENR 1.1 para 8.1 "Class D airports where ATC Surveillance service is provided"

 

Sunny Coast has radar, but its a feed from Brisbane, which goes via canberra so the delay means they cant use it for separation, hence the reason for procedural separation.

 

 

[ian00798]

Rage, the main difference between class d and c is the level of service provided. Essentially, in class d IFR get traffic information on VFR aircraft, while in class c IFR is separated from the VFR aircraft. Technically, the VFR aircraft doesn't get a separation service, but I am yet to figure out how to seperate the IFR from the VFR without by default separating the VFR from the IFR.

 

Ultimately, radar is just another separation tool, whether airspace has radar or not depends more on traffic volume, complexity etc and this is determined through a risk study. That is why traditionally most of the Australian radar coverage has been on the east coast in the j curve, this is where the most traffic is to warrant radar separation.

 

For VFR in procedural class c, I would not anticipate you getting a discrete SSR code. IFR will get given a discrete code regardless of whether or not they enter radar coverage.

 

I can't off the top of my head think of any class d airports where surveillance service is provided, the only one that may be, but I'm not sure, is avalon airport. However, if I recall correctly from my visit there, I think they are procedural too. Most procedural towers have a device called tower situational awareness device (TSAD), which gives them the radar feed from the centres. Due to the latency, it can't be used to provide surveillance services, it's designed to enhance the tower controllers awareness, and allows the tower to confirm the procedural clearances are been adhered to. Since sunny coast tower was pretty quick to have me recycle my transponder when it fell off a few months ago, I imagine the controllers find the information provided by TSAD pretty useful.

 

 

[Camel]

Rage, the main difference between class d and c is the level of service provided. Essentially, in class d IFR get traffic information on VFR aircraft, while in class c IFR is separated from the VFR aircraft. Technically, the VFR aircraft doesn't get a separation service, but I am yet to figure out how to seperate the IFR from the VFR without by default separating the VFR from the IFR.Ultimately, radar is just another separation tool, whether airspace has radar or not depends more on traffic volume, complexity etc and this is determined through a risk study. That is why traditionally most of the Australian radar coverage has been on the east coast in the j curve, this is where the most traffic is to warrant radar separation.

 

For VFR in procedural class c, I would not anticipate you getting a discrete SSR code. IFR will get given a discrete code regardless of whether or not they enter radar coverage.

 

I can't off the top of my head think of any class d airports where surveillance service is provided, the only one that may be, but I'm not sure, is avalon airport. However, if I recall correctly from my visit there, I think they are procedural too. Most procedural towers have a device called tower situational awareness device (TSAD), which gives them the radar feed from the centres. Due to the latency, it can't be used to provide surveillance services, it's designed to enhance the tower controllers awareness, and allows the tower to confirm the procedural clearances are been adhered to. Since sunny coast tower was pretty quick to have me recycle my transponder when it fell off a few months ago, I imagine the controllers find the information provided by TSAD pretty useful.

In 2009 I flew through Maroochydore, Sunshine Coast airport, got a clearance etc, it is class D, the controller asked me to confirm my altitude and told me transponder was indicating 200feet difference, so they must have radar I presume. The transponder was not calibrated in my aircraft as I had just picked it up from Bundaberg.

 

 

[ian00798]

Sunshine Coast has TSAD, which gives them a display of the radar from Brisbane centre. It is for the situational awareness of the controller, they can't use it to seperate you from other aircraft due to the latency and also the controllers are not endorsed for radar tower operations. The controller would have queried you about the height difference because they wanted to make sure you were operating according to your clearance. 200ft isn't a horrible difference, and it's not uncommon to see it happen, normally it's a qnh issue.

 

The easiest way to know if you are receiving a surveillance service is if you hear the phrase identified. Until you hear that phrase, you are not receiving a surveillance service.