Correct approach and landing

[zhoser]

Hello

 

I bought a Savannah Xl one month ago and I am very happy with it unless for the nose wheel vibration (I posted it in this forum).

 

I never had a STOL plane before, I flew a Tecnam Sierra for 5 years and a Cirrus SR-20 for 7 years. Now I have to learn to fly slower and sometimes it is not easy, I made 4 hours with an instructor, the speed approach I used it is about 50-55 mph and in the threshold I try to reduce to 45 mph. My instructor landed the plane with the nose very high holding the stick in the chest to settle the nose wheel very slow, this look like a perfect landing but I felt with this way it is very easy to make a balloon in the runway and I can´t even see the runway , I am used to land more plane and not to hold back the stick so aggressively. I noticed too if I approach hight it is not easy to get the correct path with full flaps neither with a slide, I feel the plane float a lot, maybe I am used to a airplane like the Cirrus with very effective flaps and very heavy, and it makes very easy to low descend very quickly.

 

¿Is this way and the speed I use the best way to land the Savannah? In the manual I saw with full flaps you can approach slower (40 Mph) but I think it is very slow speed and I would feel uncomfortable flying at this speed.

 

Could you tell me what´s the best way to land the Savannah to take advantage its STOL capacity .

 

I think I land quicker than I should and maybe I use a wrong technique because sometimes in sand runways the plane skid when I put the brakes an it could be dangerous.

 

I think I must get used to fly a Stol plane and to practique more the slow flight because when you come from quicker aircrafts it is not easy to fly so slow.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Go up to 4500ft and get used to flying slowly. Learn what your new plane is comfortable doing, then you will be more comfortable doing it too.

 

 

[Cosmick]

Not many Sav Pilots use the 2nd stage of flaps. I found that on a glide approach and 2nd stage she was all over the place so for glide approach most use 1st stage or none at all. I have only landed STOL with an instructor a couple of times and he was on the controls under power approach with 2nd stage and stopped on a dime. Certainly not something to try without instruction.

 

 

[facthunter]

Generally speaking IF a plane floats it has excess speed. If it doesn't you are without a safety margin. Very slow flight often removes safety margins and reduces control capability. Using power in my view under these circumstances is necessary for safety. STOL planes are affected by wind gusts as you have a high angle of attack at times and an increase in airflow will give a great rush of lift. Just general comment .Nev

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Zhoser, The method you describe with the nose very high and stick back is certainly one method to use, and take full advantage of the Savs excellent STOL landing capabilities. I would agree fully with only the use of one notch of flap at landing, because only one is needed to achieve results, and it still allows a good margin of safety if encountering gusts or the need to power -up and go around.

 

The nose- high stick back landing method in my experience is only used close to the ground in the final flare just before touchdown, and is a safe and highly successfully method in the right hands. Although some forward viz is lost, the aircraft continues to exhibit full control-feel feedback in both pitch and roll, and suitable reference to the ground is easily maintained with reference out the side doors.

 

As previous, the very high nose technique is only recommended in the very last stage of the landing at the final flare with the aircraft not more that 5 feet above the ground.

 

A normal STOL landing approach would see the aircraft slowed and fully stabilised with one stage of flap in the late stage of final approach over the fence. Power would be adjusted and maintained as required to establish and maintain the airspeed and a suitable approach angle.

 

As with any low airspeed manoeuvre it is suggested that practise be carried out as required at altitude until the pilot is confident in his own abilities, and in tune with the capabilities of the aircraft. Safety is paramount .

 

 

[Savannahflyer]

I usually fly a 45 knot approach in the Savannah, yes it feels very slow but with a 28kt stall it's still safe. With higher approach speed you will get a lot of ballon on landing but if that happens just apply a little power & it should settle again nicely and not touch down so hard. They do like a very high nose altuitude on landing and it also helps protect that not so strong nose wheel. Have a play with slower approach speeds and see how you go.

 

 

[Yenn]

If the publishedstall is 28 kts, then approach should be 1.3 times higher ie 37kts. You approach at 45 and you have a lot of speed to get rid of to land.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

If the publishedstall is 28 kts, then approach should be 1.3 times higher ie 37kts. You approach at 45 and you have a lot of speed to get rid of to land.

That right Yenn...but you pull that nose and any excess speed disappears real quick.

 

 

[djpacro]

Nope, need to correct stall speed for PE before doing the arithmetic and then change back to indicated speed.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

 

There are 4 video in this series it is excellent. This requires practice and it is the best way to do it from all the research I have done. I go to 3500 ft and practice this regularly

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

[Kyle Communications]

[rankamateur]

Rob is going to love all these big tyres!

 

 

[facthunter]

Think they are more suited to Alaska. Nev

 

 

[Ultralights]

you got to have fat tyres!

 

[MEDIA=vimeo]16561627[/MEDIA]

 

as for STOL ops, all i can say is Practice Practice and more Practice. as suggested, trim for slow flight around 40kts. and fly at that speed for a while until your comfortable with the high nose attitude.

 

I rarely use 2nd stage of flap. the only time i use it is to create drag to steepen up a descent into a tight spot. and use plenty of power in the flar and landing otherwise it will stop very quickly as you flare with 2nd stage flap out. also, the MASSIVE adverse yaw with 2nd stage flap make slow flight interesting. not recommended.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Another reason Ultralights I am about to modify my modified flap bracket again. My full flap will be just under half way between first stage and full flap. It should become far more useable than it is now...because now I never use the original full flap and I think it will be much better to have just a bit more than the original first stage. and first stage will also become just a little bit less than original. Mine still have the factory flap positions but the flap handle is in a different position so I can easily use it

 

 

 

[erd72]

For stol landing with a savannah S, i use :

 

75 To 70 km/h with 1 flap level

 

In short : 65 To 60 km/h full flaps

 

Engine rotation around 2200 rev / min

 

Final rotation you will be around 45/50 km/h then high nose

 

BUT you need To be acustomated to use these parameters and réally feel the savannah. The most important point.

 

With that you fan expect To have a Rolling less than 60 meters... Or less...

 

Ex:

 

 

But really before using these parameters work your feeling at highest speed and take in account Mto conditions.

 

It is better To achieve a good landing but longer than an short er but hard and dangerous...

 

Just To warn...

 

 

[zhoser]

Thank you erd72,

 

This is the proper landing the ICP manual shows, but some pilots didn't recommend it to me because you are very near the limit, they recommended me to use 80 km/h for 1 stage flap and don´t use 2 stage flap.

 

I think before to use these parameters I need to practise with higher speeds and of course take in account the wind, the weight and the altitude density.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Wow Erd72 you really throw that Sav around on approach

 

 

[JerzyGeorge]

HelloI bought a Savannah Xl one month ago and I am very happy with it unless for the nose wheel vibration (I posted it in this forum).

 

I never had a STOL plane before, I flew a Tecnam Sierra for 5 years and a Cirrus SR-20 for 7 years. Now I have to learn to fly slower and sometimes it is not easy, I made 4 hours with an instructor, the speed approach I used it is about 50-55 mph and in the threshold I try to reduce to 45 mph. My instructor landed the plane with the nose very high holding the stick in the chest to settle the nose wheel very slow, this look like a perfect landing but I felt with this way it is very easy to make a balloon in the runway and I can´t even see the runway , I am used to land more plane and not to hold back the stick so aggressively. I noticed too if I approach hight it is not easy to get the correct path with full flaps neither with a slide, I feel the plane float a lot, maybe I am used to a airplane like the Cirrus with very effective flaps and very heavy, and it makes very easy to low descend very quickly.

 

¿Is this way and the speed I use the best way to land the Savannah? In the manual I saw with full flaps you can approach slower (40 Mph) but I think it is very slow speed and I would feel uncomfortable flying at this speed.

 

Could you tell me what´s the best way to land the Savannah to take advantage its STOL capacity .

 

I think I land quicker than I should and maybe I use a wrong technique because sometimes in sand runways the plane skid when I put the brakes an it could be dangerous.

 

I think I must get used to fly a Stol plane and to practique more the slow flight because when you come from quicker aircrafts it is not easy to fly so slow.

Savannah is a very easy to land , but do not land it to slow especially in rough winds.

I have c.a. 500 hours and many landings on it and always try to keep my speed 40-35 knots on approach with 1-st stage flaps. Not very often I use full flaps and speed is 35 knots . Looking at the videos above I am pretty sure that it was not far from stalling. When I fly I like to have a margin and always ready to full throttle and go around. You can execute pretty hard landing on Savannah as well. On rough strips I land on main wheels with nose only slightly up to take the weight off it .

 

And be very careful with hard braking because it will put a lot of load on front suspension. When flying very slow always hold it with the throttle do not glide only. And when going around keep an eye on max full flaps speed.

 

One of the good exercise is to fly a meter or less above runway at the beginning at 40 knots and then gradually lower your speed 5, 10 knots and have plenty practise on long grass runway , get the aircraft to react to your stick and throttle actions.

 

Do not touch down front wheel first because cannot take a lot of abuse. It looks like you are experienced pilot and have more hours than me , so sorry to say all that.

 

 

[facthunter]

All sounds like good advice to me. Nev

 

 

[erd72]

Another reason Ultralights I am about to modify my modified flap bracket again. My full flap will be just under half way between first stage and full flap. It should become far more useable than it is now...because now I never use the original full flap and I think it will be much better to have just a bit more than the original first stage. and first stage will also become just a little bit less than original. Mine still have the factory flap positions but the flap handle is in a different position so I can easily use it

 

I am working on flaps positions onf my savannah s , creating 1 more position for full flaps, and 1 position negative flaps. So 5 positions.

 

I expect an increasing speed around 10 Km/h, and shorter land distance for very short tracks (lenght less than 80 m).

 

A pict of the concept done by a friend

 

 

 

[facthunter]

Flaps do good things add lift, lower the nose and add drag. Good on approach but not good on climb. Nev

 

 

[eightyknots]

I am working on flaps positions onf my savannah s , creating 1 more position for full flaps, and 1 position negative flaps. So 5 positions.I expect an increasing speed around 10 Km/h, and shorter land distance for very short tracks (lenght less than 80 m).

A pict of the concept done by a friend

I wonder if the negative flaps will really increase speed by 10 km/h?

 

 

[erd72]

On VG XL it seems to be at least 10, 12 ... But i will test in january...