Who has "looped" a taildragger

[bexrbetter]

Who has "looped" a taildragger while taxi'ing or on the runway, and how did it happen please?

 

a/ According to you ...

 

and

 

b/ The truth.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

I have turned further than I had planned (180 degrees instead of 90 degrees) when taxiing too fast and trying to turn off the runway. No damage except to pride. I was backtracking so had tailwind which helped push the aircraft around. Lesson learnt, taxi speed reduced.

 

 

[dutchroll]

I've had to make some pretty coarse inputs to stop that situation happening. Same thing - taxying too fast for the conditions after becoming familiar with the plane and getting a bit cocky. In other words I've had full rudder and some brake in to stop it happening! Never on the runway though.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Came awfully close at Corowa a few years ago.

 

Landed on the x-wind runway to avoid interfering with the great gaggle of gliders all lined up into wind on the other one.

 

Everything was ok until I passed a gap in the hangars at about 35 knots in three point attitude and the into wind wing flew up, the Auster started to veer badly on one wheel and I thought I was gone. Managed to get it down again with brake and aileron but must have looked awfully iffy.

 

Kaz

 

 

[SDQDI]

The closest I have come was just on this last Monday evening. (Yes I know normally We wait a few years till we talk about our stuff ups but I'm not normal(-:)

 

I had been out for a late arvo sunset flight (my favourite flying time) and had a passenger to drop off at a nearby farm. The farm strip (hardly a strip, it was a farm track with a gully one side and a corn crop on the other with washouts here and there) was one I had landed on before and all went well and I landed without any trouble and dropped off my pax. Now this was the first time with this pax and I had supervised his loading in but didn't watch him getting out which was the first link in the event. When he got out his trousers or leg must have bumped my park brake lever just enough which didn't affect my takeoff as I had lined up before he got out so I didn't use the brakes at all but it was when I got home that things woke me up!

 

As part of my prelanding checks I squeeze my brake pedals to make sure I have pressure and this unwittingly locked my brakes on. (I will now be adding check park brake off to my list, I should've already done that but will explain that later) and the road I was using at home had a nice 5knot quartering crosswind but it was a fairly constant wind so nothing taxing and I had had a beautiful flight and was quite comfy with how it was all going that was until I touched down, upon touchdown of my upwind wheel it skidded causing the nose to swing towards the wind bringing down my other mainwheel and lifting my tail up to about level. It was an instant thing to bump power on to get some rudder and elevator authority but it was so so close and was enough to give my heart a good speed up.

 

I was lucky that a few things were going my way, for starters once I had weight on the mains they spun as the brakes don't quite have the Oomf to lock them solid with the big wheels, and secondly always being taught to have the hand on the power in the circuit was totally essential, a split second of delay and I would've been around and had a bent wing at the least.

 

So I was really the cause (isn't a ground loop always initiated by the pilot!) and I should've known better. Why? Well a month or so ago I took forumite old K for a local flight to scout some local strips and for any here that don't know him he has long legs and on top of that when we went I had the pax seat one hole forward so his legs were a bit far forward. Well in the time it took us to fly to the first strip his gangly legs had pulled the same park brake lever on. The landing was uphill and being a new strip I was planning on braking hard anyway so we did a nice short landing and I didn't notice anything wrong until I went to taxi, well it was on a little slope but I needed full power to move. I had my belt off to jump out and check things over before I spotted what had happened. So how's that for a classic human factors stuff up. I had knowledge of this happening but still didn't put enough emphasis on it to add it too my checklist as I justified it to myself as being a once off occurrence due to old ks long legs and incorrect seating position, not thinking that someone getting out a bit differently could do exactly the same thing.

 

On top of putting it on my checklist I'm also now thinking of adding a lock to the park rake to totally rule out a similar problem. Anyway it's still fresh in my mind but is the only time I've ever felt close to ground looping so thought I would share.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Thanks guys, appreciate you taking the time.

 

I am just theorising some ideas for anti-looping and the various reasons why a looping occurs is of course a valuable insight.

 

 

[dutchroll]

Common factors in my opinion for ground looping (in no particular order):

 

1. Speed too fast

 

2. Rudder inputs not appropriate (usually too much peddling & deflection on the rudder resulting in PIOs then "whoops!")

 

3. Corrective action left too late.

 

 

[facthunter]

Well a taildragger is directionally unstable by design, by having the wheels in front of the Cof G. The further forward the harder your job is. Tailwinds definitely have a big effect as you slow down. Cracking the power on quickly instead of rolling forward a few feet in a straight line at beginning of the take-off roll is a possible cause. Tail up taxi is a likely situation. (it's cowboy stuff). Using differential braking is not recommended in the Citabria POH Rudder is primary method. Correction needs to be done early before the yaw is beyond recovery. Landing with a brake on or partially on. I experienced this once sitting in the right hand seat of a Murphy Rebel. I wasn't doing the landing and MATE, you wouldn't believe how FAST that plane ground looped . I reckon it took 3 seconds or less to do a 360 and it was on a sealed strip and I have no idea how the tyres didn't come off the wheel rims, or the wing tip hit the ground. No warning at all, just touch the runway and instant rotation. My neck was sore for a week..That's the only one I've been in. There was nothing I could do about it.

 

I started in Tailwheel planes and when instructing had a lot of "situations"of near groundloops the student will put you into where you have to takeover and save the situation . That's the nature of the game and at that stage of aviation all pilots started in tricycle undercarriages and they thought the rudder pedals were for resting your feet on so the cause there is too slow and not enough ( rudder.)

 

Some older fast planes have rudders that are really too small or shielded so you have to have the tailwheel set up well and keep the stick right back to keep some weight on it, when landing, when there's no propwash . Nev

 

 

[dutchroll]

I was always taught to keep the stick right back on landing. It also dampens out and reduces the tendency to "porpoise" in pitch, as well as aiding in directional control. Particularly in the Pitts!

 

I also remember the consequence of getting bit too excited on the rudder pedals, with my Pitts instructor saying after the landing roll "you know you seem to be determined to make these landing rollouts really hard for yourself - go easy on the pedals!"

 

 

[WayneL]

I am just theorising some ideas for anti-looping and the various reasons why a looping occurs is of course a valuable insight.[/quote

Put a nose wheel on it?

 

 

[nickduncs84]

Not yet....but I'm only about 30 hours into it....give it time

 

 

[Scotty 1]

Started in tricycle and when doing the tailwheel endo like Nev said, soon found I had lazy feet so I would go out onto the grass cross strip, partial power, taxi at about 25knots and lift and lower the tail. I can tell you things happened real quick. Did a couple 180's and can remember skidding off the runway backwards with the brakes locked on. Gets the heart rate up. Might have been a bit different if it was on the black stuff. Haven't ground looped since then (yet) and part of my checks both pre taxi and pre landing is to wriggle my feet and say to myself , dance feet, dance.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I've done it twice. Early on when I was learning how to handle my taildragger I would go out to the airport when nobody was around to see me make a d1ck of myself.

 

Both times as per Happyflyer's analysis: taxiing (how is that damned word spelled anyway?) too fast an backtrack. Both right turns that increased in intensity due mainly to tailwind catching the rudder and perhaps asymmetric prop wash. After my heart rate returned to normal I tried to analyse what I'd done wrong. Putting a boot full of opposite rudder in an effort to correct it makes it worse: you're just giving more rudder to that tailwind.

 

On a sealed surface the outer wheel digs in, and as Nev said, she comes around very fast. Must put a big side load on structure. Not much you can do once it starts.

 

Luckily the Jodel wing's upturned ends cleared the ground- good design.

 

 

[facthunter]

Scotty, I reckon grass is more forgiving. Your idea of practicing the way you did is a good move. At about 100 feet on final I sort of wriggle a bit forward in the seat, check my feet are off the brakes and switch into concentrate mode. You do ask yourself why don't I just go tricycle, occasionally, but they (T/W) are just more versatile, cheaper to maintain, Slightly faster in the air, you can't wheelbarrow them and you can actually handle more extreme winds if you know how to . Nev

 

 

[Bernie]

I was a passenger in a tail drag Cessna landed at Archer Field I was looking at the aircraft on final behind us next I was looking down the runway .

 

Pilot had used to much right brake .

 

Bernie .

 

 

[kasper]

Twice,

 

1. taxi downwind too fast and the wind caught me out - lovely pirouette off to the side of the runway

 

2. tailspring fractured on touchdown and caught the rudder cable pulling full rudder into the direction the tailwheel was taking me anyway - a much faster pirouette off the side of the runway

 

Both times how it happened and how I said it happened were the same - in my opinion I can hardly call myself and instructor and expect to be listened to unless I am prepared to be honest about what I got wrong

 

 

[IanR]

Came awfully close at Corowa a few years ago.Landed on the x-wind runway to avoid interfering with the great gaggle of gliders all lined up into wind on the other one.

 

Everything was ok until I passed a gap in the hangars at about 35 knots in three point attitude and the into wind wing flew up, the Auster started to veer badly on one wheel and I thought I was gone. Managed to get it down again with brake and aileron but must have looked awfully iffy.

 

Kaz

Kaz - using the word brake and Auster in the same sentence ??

 

 

[facthunter]

You can break an Auster on take off. Nev

 

 

[Tomo]

If you bounce a tail dragger a little on landing most by standers won't take a whole lot of notice... but if you bounce a tricycle on landing, eyebrows often get raised!

 

 

[facthunter]

Again the taildragger is all wrong The wheels being in front of the CofG energy in the u/c springs wants to pitch up the aircraft. In a tricycle being behind the CofG will pitch it onto the nosewheel. (lower the nose. Less AoA too) Gawd keep this up and I'll want a tricycle. Nev

 

 

[pylon500]

I would have thought a quicker answered question would be, 'which taildragger drivers HAVEN'T ground looped?'

 

It's a bit like retractables, there's those that have, and those that are going to...

 

I was lucky, I did it in a Blanik.

 

Oh, and the ground loops?..., 912 lightwing, a couple of times.

 

Usually from being a bit lax with a pilot converting to the GR912 from the GR582 (you've got to try pretty hard to ground loop a GR582).

 

 

[kaz3g]

Kaz - using the word brake and Auster in the same sentence ??

I was going to qualify that comment, Ian but I knew that Auster drivers would recognise this as instinctive rather than effective.

 

Kaz

 

 

[kasper]

Again the taildragger is all wrong The wheels being in front of the CofG energy in the u/c springs wants to pitch up the aircraft. In a tricycle being behind the CofG will pitch it onto the nosewheel. (lower the nose. Less AoA too) Gawd keep this up and I'll want a tricycle. Nev

Why would you want a training wheel added to the front???

 

 

[kasper]

I would have thought a quicker answered question would be, 'which taildragger drivers HAVEN'T ground looped?'It's a bit like retractables, there's those that have, and those that are going to...

I was lucky, I did it in a Blanik.

 

Oh, and the ground loops?..., 912 lightwing, a couple of times.

 

Usually from being a bit lax with a pilot converting to the GR912 from the GR582 (you've got to try pretty hard to ground loop a GR582).

OK - thruster T85 with R503 - ground loops beautifully going downwing a bit fast, broken tailspring was the Mignet HM290FB

 

 

[Contact Flying]

Instructing in Champion 7AC, I have had students ground loop after rolling out a bit on landing. Using the apparent rate of closure (slow at bottom power/pitch) approach kept the speed slow enough that no damage would be done after a short roll out. They learn quicker if they manipulate the controls from the start.

 

Dynamic proactive rudder movement, lots when slow and less when fast, is how we stay ahead of the airplane to prevent a ground loop. Like the tennis player waiting on the serve, we need move our weight from left to right foot and back repeatedly. Flat footed we will never get to the serve. Flat footed, we will be reactive rather than proactive. The only way to keep it straight is to put the nose just left, just right, etc. to bracket the straight line. Waiting and reacting is too late.