Who has "looped" a taildragger

[facthunter]

Kasper I don't but many do. If the tail sits up in the air enough the tricycle works better than if it sits level but most run out of prop ground clearance when you do that. I'm probably a T/W for life, but others should have the pro's and cons explained honestly if there is going to be a discussion of it.. If I see a U tube or such of a T/W landing I always watch what the rudder is doing. When nosewheel became common I just couldn't believe that people could "wheelbarrow" them and come to grief. (touching down at too high a speed)

 

Jim the feet movement is one way of looking at being actively ready to input IF I had to analyse myself I would say I probably apply more input than I could get away with but if things happen I'm ready to give it a fair bit quickly. I'd like to think I could use less input at just the right time(finess it more). but it might get away from me, if I change my style.Nev

 

 

[kasper]

Yes, no idea where the training of trying to fly to the end of the runway went ... holdoff means just that - do it and the noseleg stays nice n safe ... the other way I used to teach it was imagine the noseleg is made of glass - remember that and you will want to get it off the ground and keep it there all the time you have airspeed/control authority

 

 

[facthunter]

If your flare and float distance is more than about 40 metres in our kind if stuff I reckon you are getting a bit fast (in fairly calm conditions) and the nosewheel should be well above the surface of the runway, at touchdown.. It's a good thing to keep the weight off the nosewheel all the time. If you are low time or had a break add a bit of speed but don't get into bad habits just because it's easier to judge or you have a looong runway. Train for a minimum one but little braking. Nev

 

 

[Guernsey]

I've never ground looped any of my tail draggers except the Auster which I have had to intentionally ground loop many times when taxiing in strong winds in Guernsey and ran out of brake. Comments from control tower "must be windy, here he goes again."

 

Alan.

 

 

[bushcaddy105]

Here's another take:- Turning (too sharply) 180 degrees at the end of a backtrack to line up for takeoff, the Matco locking tailwheel unlocked and there wasn't enough forward speed to bring it back in to line for it to self-lock again. End result - stationary at 90 degrees to runway and having to climb out and push tail back into place. This certainly made the passenger a tad nervous. Thinking about it afterwards, full opposite rudder and a blast of power may have saved the day, but I've never allowed myself to get into this situation again to try this fix.

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

was a passenger in a tail dragger Skyfox when it ground looped on landing at YRED years ago, apparently nothing special as it was a fairly common occurrence..

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

OK - thruster T85 with R503 - ground loops beautifully going downwing a bit fast, broken tailspring was the Mignet HM290FB

I trained in 3 different Thrusters with three different instructors, but I never could master the dammed things on landing roll.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Again the taildragger is all wrong The wheels being in front of the CofG energy in the u/c springs wants to pitch up the aircraft. In a tricycle being behind the CofG will pitch it onto the nosewheel. (lower the nose. Less AoA too) Gawd keep this up and I'll want a tricycle. Nev

No you won't ... Or I'll hunt you down ... LOL

 

 

[Yenn]

Landing in a gentle right crosswind and I didn't have enough rudder to stop me turning towards a wire fence, so i gave up trying to straighten it with eft rudder and groundlooped it to the right with rudder. The problem was a sticking right brake, if i had used left brake i could have saved the situation. I broke the block which holds the tailwheel spring to the fuse, which is a Corby weak point.

 

That was the only groundloop in about 800 tailwheel hours. Maybe I am lucky but have never had a problem before or since.

 

 

[facthunter]

I think if you can fly the Corby you must be doing most things right. I've never done one when I was the pilot. I've gone very close when I let a student go too far but you have to do that. You can't be on the controls if the other person is learning. The only actual is the Rebel at Corowa and it went so fast nothing would save it. I'm pretty sure the pilot landed with some brake on and they were Clevelands. It can happen any time I guess. Full 360 in a blur. If you blinked you would miss it. Nev

 

 

[Contact Flying]

It becomes a hard concept if one has had thousands of iterations or round out, hold off, and flair, but the apparent brisk walk rate of closure approach eliminates the need for round out and hold off. If learned early, it is a much easier approach. I have soloed many tailwheel students in six or seven hours using it.

 

Because the airplane is slowed gradually to near stall speed by short final, the nose is up, protecting any nose gear, so no need to round out. Because the airplane is near stall speed by short final, there is not much hold off. We now flair for three point landing or to protect the gear or level the airplane for wheel landing.

 

Stabilizing apparent rate at a brisk walk, rather than stabilizing airspeed at too much to land, greatly simplifies the whole procedure. The apparent brisk walk rate of closure is what we use to slow our autos for a stop at an intersection. We have thousands and thousands of iterations. It is something the student already knows and, with a little stall practice, can apply. We need not be mushing down, but the knowledge of that happening or not happening can be taught. We do not need to be 1.3 Vso to keep from mushing down or stalling.

 

Yes, in a downwind approach, we will be mushing down at the short final point unless we add some more power. Also we will have to be careful, in a strong headwind component, to protect and nose gear. The airplane will be quite level with significant airspeed even though the ground speed is fine. In a Champ or very light airplane, we have to be careful to not get going backwards in a strong headwind.

 

Anyway, it works good with pre-solo students as well as old pros. It is easy on airplanes, especially tailwheel airplanes. The time when they could be damaged by a ground loop is very short.

 

 

[Contact Flying]

It becomes a hard concept if one has had thousands of iterations or round out, hold off, and flair, but the apparent brisk walk rate of closure approach eliminates the need for round out and hold off. If learned early, it is a much easier approach. I have soloed many tailwheel students in six or seven hours using it.

 

Because the airplane is slowed gradually to near stall speed by short final, the nose is up, protecting any nose gear, so no need to round out. Because the airplane is near stall speed by short final, there is not much hold off. We now flair for three point landing or to protect the nose gear or level the airplane for wheel landing.

 

Stabilizing apparent rate at a brisk walk, rather than stabilizing airspeed at too much to land, greatly simplifies the whole procedure. The apparent brisk walk rate of closure is what we use to slow our autos for a stop at an intersection. We have thousands and thousands of iterations. It is something the student already knows and, with a little stall practice, can apply safely. We need not be mushing down, but the knowledge of that happening or not happening can be taught. We do not need to be 1.3 Vso to keep from mushing down or stalling.

 

Yes, in a downwind approach, we will be mushing down at the short final point unless we add some more power. Also we will have to be careful, in a strong headwind component, to protect and nose gear. The airplane will be quite level with significant airspeed even though the ground speed is fine. In a Champ or very light airplane, we have to be careful to not get going backwards in a strong headwind.

 

Anyway, it works good with pre-solo students as well as old pros. It is easy on airplanes, especially tailwheel airplanes. The time when they could be damaged by a ground loop is very short.

 

 

[facthunter]

Yes once you slow up there is little risk except to your ego. Downwind landings you can expect to get a slight increase in airspeed near the ground due windshear and float a bit. For most pilots the next one they do may be their first ever. Nev

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Back in the grand old days learning to fly in the prototype Stolareo/ Condor. Every way one possibly could. No brakes and full castoring tail wheel, woohoo.

 

No so much later in the Thrusters they had a steerable tail wheel and had pretty much mastered lighty tail draggers by then. Only time losing it was showing off with tail up 180s to take off again. Few times really pushing the x wind landings just to see how far it could go. Never did any damage tho.

 

Had a few exciting moments with the Turbine Beaver in really bad conditions and the Bushman C150 TD with a 150hp.

 

 

[Oscar]

Ozzie - you flew the Turbine Beaver? I remember well, observing an Australian certification test of the DHC-2T out at Hoxton Park very early one morning, when (having completed the actual test sequences), the test pilot, who from memory was Randy Greene, got a bit bored and came down with the prop in beta at a ludicrous angle of arrival, and ended his roll-out travelling backwards. Randy was a natty gentleman, Empire Test Pilot's School trained (of course...).

 

Randy was completely unflappable. One very early morning, when on his way to test the Victa autogyro, he was zipping down a narrow back lane near Bankstown at rather illegal speed when a truck backed out of a factory right across his path. He spun his Mini-Cooper 'S' to a halt just missing the truck, got out, said to the shit-white-frightened truck driver: 'Now, don't go doing that when you go for your licence test, will you, lad?', and when the truck had cleared the lane again, pulled another handbrake turn and continued on his way with a merry wave...

 

 

[Dick Gower]

Mostly happens near the end of the roll-out in light winds just as you were relaxing and congratulating yourself on "getting away with it again".

 

 

[facthunter]

If you have any sort of a tailwind it makes things interesting as you slow down. I see your avatar. second post, welcome... Do you have one? Chippee. Nev

 

 

[Dick Gower]

If you have any sort of a tailwind it makes things interesting as you slow down. I see your avatar. second post, welcome... Do you have one? Chippee. Nev

Yes downwind is definitely more interesting. I used to teach on taildraggers by running back and forth on a vacant runway and raising and lowering the tail. Much quicker way to learn if it can be arranged but the downwind run was always much more "interesting".

 

Yes, I have had a Chippy for 28 years or so Nev; very impractical aeroplane but I do love flying them.

 

 

[facthunter]

Lovely control feel with rods all through. Rudder is a bit small. Expensive to maintain. Funny handbrake... Are you using it to keep straight? Does it still have the 10MK 2 engine and are there any new heads available?. I'm glad I trained in one. and briefly instructed in them. . Nev

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Yes downwind is definitely more interesting. I used to teach on taildraggers by running back and forth on a vacant runway and raising and lowering the tail. Much quicker way to learn if it can be arranged but the downwind run was always much more "interesting".Yes, I have had a Chippy for 28 years or so Nev; very impractical aeroplane but I do love flying them.

This was the first lesson back when tail draggers were called conventional. First couple hours was just taxying all over the airport towards the end of the lesson a few faster runs up the runway.

 

It was always fun to watch a new ultralight pilot start their first runs. Pull up a chair in the shade and watch the entertainment.

 

 

[Guernsey]

Yes, I have had a Chippy for 28 years or so Nev; very impractical aeroplane but I do love flying them.

Would love to see some photos Dick.

 

Alan.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Don and Robert Bunn are up between Howling and Albury. I think they still manufacture some parts for the Gipsy including barrels but not sure if they did heads for them.

 

I think the two Liz's, Dick's wife and his Chippie, are so much part of his life he would be lost without them.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Oscar]

My brother had his initial training, to x-country, with the legendary Beth Garrett at Morrabbin, on Chippies. Even then. Morrabbin was too busy for use of runways to practice taxying, but I seem to recall him mentioning that Beth had him taxying up and down the line of tied down aircraft with the comment that if he hit any, he was up for the repair costs. Apparently, focussed the mind to the task in hand (or feet).

 

That training must have been useful; he owned a J5G for some years, in which he did a lot of tug pilot work (and that involves landing short in any conditions to make even the costs..). I don't ever recall him ever ground-looping it. I still have both hands left after many starts of it

 

 

[facthunter]

I can't recall any particular difficulty with taxiing the DHC-1 .You just put the handbrake partly on and it brakes differentially as you move the rudder pedals. You make sure the brake is fully off prior to landing or take off so you can get full rudder at that stage. It's a bit of a strange set-up but you get used to it . Nev.

 

 

[Dick Gower]

Yes, expensive to maintain and generally troublesome but great to fly. Trained on them in the 60's. Heads are getting rare but such a long period of service in the RAF has helped the spares situation a lot. And the brake: fastest moving three-handed sport in the world!