A day to be remembered or forgotten?

[Guest ericthered1975]

Last Monday completed 74 years the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, one of the most painful days of American History. I share with you here a link that brings a collection of dramatic photos, many of them rare, showing the devastation caused by the attack on the airfields of the island. Visit the link below and answer the title question.

 

http://aviacaoemfloripa.blogspot.com.br/2011/01/o-dia-da-infamia-em-fotos.html

 

Best Regards!

 

 

[turboplanner]

Two things I'm very proud of; I've flown an aircraft up the Grand Canyon, and I've stood on the platform of the Arizona.

 

 

[Kamloops]

When I was in Hawaii I did the tour.

 

What a horrible tragedy.

 

Honestly impressed that the USA did not go to Japan after that and drop 500 nuclear bombs. The restraint shown to drop just the 1 was amazing.

 

That attack showed the cowardice and pure lack of morals the japanese had.

 

 

[Downunder]

Ummm.... at the time of Pearl harbour, the atom bomb had not been invented.....2 bombs were actually dropped on the cities of Nagasaki and Hiroshima in 1945.

 

Here ends today's history lesson.....

 

 

[turboplanner]

Well he didn't specify a time, and they did go and drop one on Hiroshima which today we acknowledge, ended the war, but at the time, after the dogged fighting in the Pacific by the Japanese at each location, long after a normal army would have surrendered, the Nagasaki bomb was a hurry up which wasn't really necessary with the benefit of hindsight.

 

I've been at the hypocentre of both bombs, and at Nagasaki arrived there as several hundred school children were holding a memorial ceremony. After several moving hymns, they broke up into their school groups, and one group came over to me and asked if they could do a survey, probably for their English lessons. There was an "Interviewer" and a "writer" who filled in the form, and the teacher to prompt them - bout 20 in the group. It was a fairly routine discussion until they got to the question, "What are your thoughts as you visit here today?"

 

I'd just come from the Museum which is all glass construction with columns three stories high in which the life story of every person killed was written on A4 paper stacked the full three stories high, and we were standing in the hypocentre dish which is painted like a bullseye, and there were forty eyes on me who had just been through a very moving ceremony.........

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Some recent docos have questioned whether the A-bombs were a decisive factor in the surrender; it appear that the entry of the Soviets into the war was the tipping point. The Red Army quickly swept thru Manchuria and the Japanese were well aware of how the Russian Royal family was massacred. Even the most die-hard militarists were scared that if the commies took over their beloved emperor would face a firing squad.

 

They quickly realised that surrendering to the Americans was the least worst option. They were right. MacArthur was pragmatic enough to overlook Hirohito's role in the war; he feared that without the unifying influence of their emperor communism could arise in Japan.

 

 

[cscotthendry]

Some recent docos have questioned whether the A-bombs were a decisive factor in the surrender; it appear that the entry of the Soviets into the war was the tipping point. The Red Army quickly swept thru Manchuria and the Japanese were well aware of how the Russian Royal family were massacred. Even the most die-hard militarists were scared that if the commies took over their beloved emperor would face a firing squad.They quickly realised that surrendering to the Americans was the least worst option. They were right. MacArthur was pragmatic enough to overlook Hirohito's role in the war; he feared that without the unifying influence of their emperor communism could arise in Japa.

OK, hindsight is always 20/20, and with politics, NOTHING is ever black and white, nor as it seems. I have watched every doco and docudrama, and read everything I can lay hands on about the Pacific war and just about every one comes at the conflict from a different perspective. My point is, we'll never definitively know the reasons behind the dropping of the bombs on Japan.

That said, I have a great uncle who is on the Arizona. Whenever I go to Hawaii, I always make the pilgrimage to say "hello and RIP".

 

 

[rgmwa]

My point is, we'll never definitively know the reasons behind the dropping of the bombs on Japan.

Probably nothing more subtle than "we've got it, so let's use it .... and if it impresses the Russians too, then so much the better".

rgmwa

 

 

[Jabiru7252]

I knew a guy who spent many years in Japan (from the 1950s onwards). He said the Japs got into the war because they saw the west as trying (forcing) the Asians to become westernized. They saw westerners as unrefined slobs.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

The Germans were busting for the Japanese to attack Russia in the east. The Japanese were too honorable to break a treaty and do this . I'm sure glad they didn't.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I knew a guy who spent many years in Japan...They saw westerners as unrefined slobs.

...and still do.

 

 

[turboplanner]

...and still do.

I've travelled extensively in Japan on a number of occasions, worked with Japanese for 20 years, one of them being the most professional person I've ever worked with, communicated with them, disagreed with them, thanked them for outstanding support, and never in that time, not once, experienced the quaint suggestion of yours and 7252's mate.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Pearl Harour was the largest failure of America's intelligence agencies until 9/11. Imagine if the Japs had stayed around Pearl Harbour for a month, launching 3 strikes a day against the US navy and taking out those aircraft carriers? They would have crippled the USN for years

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Pearl Harour was the largest failure of America's intelligence agencies until 9/11. Imagine if the Japs had stayed around Pearl Harbour for a month, launching 3 strikes a day against the US navy and taking out those aircraft carriers? They would have crippled the USN for years

Perhaps all true on one level FT, but on a wider perspective Pearl Harbour was a gift to Churchill and Roosevelt.

Conspiracy theories persist that they both knew it was coming and got the aircraft carriers out of the way.

 

They had both been trying to convince Congress to get the US into the war. In effect, by its trade sanction against Japan, the US gave Japan no option.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

I knew a guy who spent many years in Japan (from the 1950s onwards). He said the Japs got into the war because they saw the west as trying (forcing) the Asians to become westernized. They saw westerners as unrefined slobs.

That perspective ignores a lot of history. The Japanese had been at war with and invading Asians ( China, Manchuria ( which was essentially a seperate country then ), then Indochina and a bunch of South pacific island countries for ten years before they elected to go war with the west.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I've travelled extensively in Japan on a number of occasions, worked with Japanese for 20 years, one of them being the most professional person I've ever worked with, communicated with them, disagreed with them, thanked them for outstanding support, and never in that time, not once, experienced the quaint suggestion of yours and 7252's mate.

Turbs I'm sure you presented the best of Western courtesy, but too many don't. By our standards the Japanese have incredibly high standards of behaviour. One aspect is that they are too well mannered to tell us what they really think of us.

 

 

[facthunter]

The bombing of Pearl Harbour did one thing for sure. It brought the US into the war. Towards the end the Russians made a run to take as much territory as they could and the Japs didn't want their god emperor system overthrown. Someone they were all prepared to die for. Nev

 

 

[Litespeed]

When I was in Hawaii I did the tour.What a horrible tragedy.

Honestly impressed that the USA did not go to Japan after that and drop 500 nuclear bombs. The restraint shown to drop just the 1 was amazing.

 

That attack showed the cowardice and pure lack of morals the japanese had.

I could hardly call it cowardice to attack military sites nor immoral on japans side. They did declare war but the timing was stuffed up. And anyway slamming the enemy as or before you declare is common practice.

 

What was immoral for me was bombing with Nukes when it was civilians that died, Japan was already toast power wise and could have been starved out quickly at that stage. Just because the soldiers kept fighting does not justify mass murder of ordinary people.

 

That is a war crime.

 

The same can be said of the fire bombing of cities in Germany especially Dresden- of no strategic importance but the mass murder of people. To purposely kill civilians is evil and a war crime. It was completely different to the bombing of London which was small scale in comparison and designed to damage morale. Not complete death for all- even the bomb shelters in Germany were no refuge as the fire bombing removed all oxygen from the city. And that was by design- not a accident. Bomber Harris was very keen to kill as many as civilians as possible.

 

This does not excuse the war crimes by the Japanese or Germans, but must be put into perspective. The US, British and Russians were guilty of many war crimes as well. They all had a lot of civilian blood on there hands and with full knowledge- not by some accident.

 

If we look at the pacific war in context- Pearl harbour was possibly the most morally carried out battle. But the outrage and vengeance is all out of proportion.

 

 

[cscotthendry]

The Germans were busting for the Japanese to attack Russia in the east. The Japanese were too honorable to break a treaty and do this . I'm sure glad they didn't.

The Japanese army did clash with the Russians in China and were thoroughly thrashed in the process. It made them VERY wary of ever taking on the Russians for the duration of the war.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

The Japanese army did clash with the Russians in China and were thoroughly thrashed in the process. It made them VERY wary of ever taking on the Russians for the duration of the war.

A major turning point in history. Japan was beaten by the Soviets, despite some of it's units fighting till every last man was slaughtered. That black eye convinced Japan it could not expand into Siberia; it turned south.

A hero of WWII (and possible inspiration for the character of James Bond) was a German who spied for the USSR.

 

His reports allowed Stalin to move critical forces west just in time to stop the Nazis at the gates of Moscow.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Sorge

 

 

[spacesailor]

And Dresden was not in retaliation for London!

 

Try again, German tried to wipe out another city, plus of course "The Crystal Palace".

 

spacesailor

 

 

[cooperplace]

The Germans were busting for the Japanese to attack Russia in the east. The Japanese were too honorable to break a treaty and do this . I'm sure glad they didn't.

The Russians, under Zhukov, had just defeated the Japanese in battle in the battle of Khalkin Gol. I think that's the reason why the Japanese didn't attack Russia, and that makes Khalkin Gol the most decisive battle of WW2, bar none.

 

 

[cscotthendry]

I could hardly call it cowardice to attack military sites nor immoral on japans side. They did declare war but the timing was stuffed up. And anyway slamming the enemy as or before you declare is common practice.What was immoral for me was bombing with Nukes when it was civilians that died, Japan was already toast power wise and could have been starved out quickly at that stage. Just because the soldiers kept fighting does not justify mass murder of ordinary people.

 

That is a war crime.

 

The same can be said of the fire bombing of cities in Germany especially Dresden- of no strategic importance but the mass murder of people. To purposely kill civilians is evil and a war crime. It was completely different to the bombing of London which was small scale in comparison and designed to damage morale. Not complete death for all- even the bomb shelters in Germany were no refuge as the fire bombing removed all oxygen from the city. And that was by design- not a accident. Bomber Harris was very keen to kill as many as civilians as possible.

 

This does not excuse the war crimes by the Japanese or Germans, but must be put into perspective. The US, British and Russians were guilty of many war crimes as well. They all had a lot of civilian blood on there hands and with full knowledge- not by some accident.

 

If we look at the pacific war in context- Pearl harbour was possibly the most morally carried out battle. But the outrage and vengeance is all out of proportion.

Quite so. The bombing of London occurred initially by mistake of navigation. The fire bombing of Dresden is still hotly debated to this day as to the morality and it sent Harris into seclusion for a very long time. Also, your statement about the surprise attack on PH is correct. Military attacks aim for the element of surprise. What was unintentional was that the Japanese had not officially declared war on the US at the moment the attack took place, but had fully intended to do so. There was a stuff up in the decoding of the last transmissions to the embassy in Washington that delayed the declaration till past the time of the attack. Admiral Yamamoto was said to have written in his diary "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve" when he learned that the declaration was presented AFTER the attack started.

 

 

[jetjr]

Had the US navy not been destroyed and forced to be rebuilt, its likely they would have been severely overwhelmed in later naval conflicts in the Pacific.

 

Many ships were outdated and not up to standards of Japanese navy at the time.

 

Yamamato was quite correct.

 

 

[Geoff13]

What was unintentional was that the Japanese had not officially declared war on the US at the moment the attack took place, but had fully intended to do so. There was a stuff up in the decoding of the last transmissions to the embassy in Washington that delayed the declaration till past the time of the attack. Admiral Yamamoto was said to have written in his diary "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve" when he learned that the declaration was presented AFTER the attack started.

Quite correct and this was the reason that the Japanese Fleet withdrew after the initial attck and did not press home the advantage. Loss of face at it worst.