When it all goes wrong!!!

[farri]

What I call "The Unknown Factor".... Video explains it.....Is it the cause of some accidents?

 

http://www.simplecapacity.com/2015/07/everyone-failed-to-ride-this-bicycle-the-reason-behind-is-mind-blowing/

 

Frank.

 

 

[facthunter]

It's well done but I think it becomes instinctive to do things a certain way. At that stage your brain doesn't come into it. It's like when you touch something hot. you instinctively and quickly pull away from it, so you don't get burned. People instinctively pull back more on the control column if the nose drops at a stall, the same way or even try to pick up a dropped wing even when stalled with aileron, because it's become instinctive to do so.. Some planes (usually a glider) have been assembled with ailerons reversed. )That's why you are supposed to check controls FREE and working in the CORRECT SENSE.) In that situation most pilots crash. Nev

 

 

[Guernsey]

You will also notice that when we touch something hot we all scream in the same language.

 

 

[farri]

I`m interested in the accidents involving RA-Aus pilots and I would like the focus of any discussion, on this thread, to remain there.

 

A certain amount of the accidents have occurred to very experienced pilots who were supposed to have been well trained.

 

It has been said, the accidents continue to occur for the same old reasons! If that is the case! Is the instruction being given, adequate?

 

Can any amount of training, prepare someone, for the unexpected?

 

Frank.

 

 

[Teckair]

I don't think so Frankin in some cases people become complacent.

 

 

[Ungrounded]

With regards to the "backwards bike". It probably doesn't help any that most people (including me) learnt to ride one without ever realizing that to make a left turn you actually turn the handle bars to the right, even if only briefly (and vice-versa for the other direction). Bicycles turn because they are inclined or banked over. To cause a bicycle to bank left for a left turn you have to steer to the right. The process is called "Counter Steering".

 

Not suggesting that if you did understand "Counter Steering" you would be able to ride that infernal backwards bike. But the knowledge may speed the process of re-learning how to ride.

 

Interesting video/experiment!

 

 

[facthunter]

I don't believe the instruction is adequate. You shouldn't stop at where you get the Certificate. It's not enough. U/L's are demanding to fly well. A lot of the other stuff is dead easy by comparison as for a start they are certified and the market demands an easy to fly plane. We have much more variety. Weather and component failure appear regularly and you are usually dead there. I don't think we are any worse than GA but their environment is less risky in a general sense. but neither make it in my opinion. I'm sure there are a few schools who do an exceptional job, so I don't wish to just outright condemn the lot, and I'm sick of repeating it, you need unusual attitude recovery and limit manoeuvering, like steep gliding turns, spiral dive recovery spin and spiral recognition . These can't legally be done in an RAAus aircraft.( Plus practice good sideslips accurate figure 8's.etc) so do we just not bother? I'm not talking of aerobatics. Not necessary and some don't enjoy them. Nev

 

 

[winsor68]

I think the recent thread showing an EFATO with the pilot throwing the aircraft around like it was a Spitfire with a Messerschmidt on it's tail... and the number of mature and experienced pilots who praised the pilots actions...despite said actions being exactly what the training says not to do...says it all IMO.

 

It is a human factors issue. We all somewhere deep down seem to think we are superman...and this doesn't improve with experience rather it seems to get worse.

 

 

[pylon500]

Good sideslips accurate figure 8's.etc Can't be legally done in a RAAus plane so do we just not bother?

Not sure if that is a typo, or if you really believe we are not allowed to do side-slips, figure eights, etc?

If you are in a flying club or school, and they wont teach side-slips, find another school!

 

despite said actions being exactly what the training says not to do

OK, so some of the flying depicted in some of these videos can be a bit extreme, but we shouldn't teach students to just fly straight and level.

Sure, a little bit of fear about what can go wrong is a good thing, but every pilot needs to be aware of the aircrafts abilities, even if they are beyond the pilots abilities.

 

This is where the 'further training' bit comes in after getting a certificate.

 

It's OK to keep new certificate holders a little fearful of aircraft (creates respect and caution), but it doesn't hurt to slowly expand their personal envelope towards that of the aircraft.

 

Naturally, the instructor needs to have the ability to proceed in this direction, so sometimes the instructors need to keep their game up.

 

Some 'driver' converts may not be up to speed in this area, so they should be looking for continuation training as well.

 

You will be surprised how far 45° pitch and 60° roll really are, especially when combined, or more so when going from one extreme to the other.

 

Not going to happen every day, but most ultralights will do it without problem, and pilots need to know that, that amount of authority can sometimes be achieved.

 

flame suit on,,, again

 

 

[winsor68]

Not sure if that is a typo, or if you really believe we are not allowed to do side-slips, figure eights, etc?If you are in a flying club or school, and they wont teach side-slips, find another school!

OK, so some of the flying depicted in some of these videos can be a bit extreme, but we shouldn't teach students to just fly straight and level.

 

Sure, a little bit of fear about what can go wrong is a good thing, but every pilot needs to be aware of the aircrafts abilities, even if they are beyond the pilots abilities.

 

This is where the 'further training' bit comes in after getting a certificate.

 

It's OK to keep new certificate holders a little fearful of aircraft (creates respect and caution), but it doesn't hurt to slowly expand their personal envelope towards that of the aircraft.

 

Naturally, the instructor needs to have the ability to proceed in this direction, so sometimes the instructors need to keep their game up.

 

Some 'driver' converts may not be up to speed in this area, so they should be looking for continuation training as well.

 

You will be surprised how far 45° pitch and 60° roll really are, especially when combined, or more so when going from one extreme to the other.

 

Not going to happen every day, but most ultralights will do it without problem, and pilots need to know that, that amount of authority can sometimes be achieved.

 

flame suit on,,, again

True...but none of that holds true during an EFATO. It has time and time again been proven to be deadly. Some people have gotten away with it. They were very lucky.

 

 

[farri]

At the 3.14 minute mark, in the video, the guy says, and I quote, " Once you have a rigid way of thinking in your head, some times you can not change that, even if you want to"

 

Frank.

 

 

[SSCBD]

Frank and facthunter - I can tell you for a for a fact, excuse the pun, that the standards of instruction by “some” flying schools/instructors and surprise, surprise both GA and RAA are inadequate. I completed flight reviews of both, not because I had to, as I did the GA first and was signed off without any comment, except please pay $354. My GA review comprised of no stalls, no step turns, no engine failures, no emergency procedures whatsoever, in fact the exact requirements that I did fly was straight and level for around eight nautical miles make a right turn fly back to the airport and do three landings which soaked up the hour then I was given a pat on the back and as above please pay $354 and there’s my signed flight review.

 

As per my RAA it was basically the same except this time I initiated an engine failure and pulled power at 2k myself as I was doing exactly the same thing in the GA flight review I actually had asked the instructor "you mind if we do a simulated engine failure into a paddock".

 

I also can confirm that with the GA aircraft and the RAA aircraft both of which I have never flown before so I was slow and hesitant trying to find half the switches and the general layout of the panel initially anyway.

 

I’m not talking about human factors now as I really find that a dreadful document that the RAA has put out. But:

 

Every person that has experience of let’s say 250 hours or more knows exactly what their weaknesses are when the voices start talking in the back of your head.

 

In my personal opinion I do believe that people fly the same type of aircraft get this warm and fuzzy feeling of being invincible and they think they know the plane like the back of their hand.

 

This is where I believe people should be put into different aircraft that have different traits, glide ratios even the different feel of the pressure in the control stick, trim settings, flap settings et cetera to take them out of what I call the "boiling frog syndrome".

 

“The boiling frog is an anecdote describing a frog slowly being boiled alive. The premise is that if a frog is placed in boiling water, it will jump out, but if it is placed in cold water that is slowly heated, it will not perceive the danger and will be cooked to death.”

 

I was going to post after Christmas and still will probably do something along the lines of rate your instructors what did you do for your last flight review and was it adequate with one last question when was the last time you went flying with the instructor off your own bat (not forced) to get an opinion of your skill level.

 

Everyone this is my opinion. What's yours?

 

also I dictated this using Dragon 13, so excuse any typos.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

modern single speed bicycles are the result of evolution in design, have you ever tried to ride a penny-farthing or a unicycle? Nothing can compete against its design.

 

 

[SSCBD]

At the 3.14 minute mark, in the video, the guy says, and I quote, " Once you have a rigid way of thinking in your head, some times you can not change that, even if you want to"Frank.

Frank when I was staying with you, I told you one time, many many years ago (I think ) when I was a young bold pilot and bullet-proof like yourself but not pigheaded like you (smile Frank), that I had the opportunity to fly a trike as I had never done so and all my flying was with GA ultralight. So I jump into the trike.

The trike steers like a Billy cart for those who remember how to drive a Billy carts, you push your left foot forward and the Billy cart turns right and vice versa.

 

So here I am taxing down the runway in this trike my first time ever and I could not keep it in a straight line taxing at 5 miles an hour because every time I want to correct to the left I pushed left and and the trike went right. I could not get my brain to override the years of GA / ultralight rudder input with the correct sense and then trying to go back to my childhood Billy cart days, my brain would not override the muscle memory I suppose even though it was screaming at my feet.

 

 

[rgmwa]

My GA review comprised of no stalls, no step turns, no engine failures, no emergency procedures whatsoever, in fact the exact requirements that I did fly was straight and level for around eight nautical miles make a right turn fly back to the airport and do three landings which soaked up the hour then I was given a pat on the back and as above please pay $354 and there’s my signed flight review.

That's certainly a pretty poor review session IMO. For my last GA BFR, apart from a 40 question test paper (which you can do in your own time beforehand), my instructor took me flying for about an hour and a half, which included 10 mins on instruments, steep turns, stalls, slips, incipient spin recovery, a forced landing, a series of unusual attitude recoveries on instruments (at my request), and finally a short field landing on returning to Jandakot, which is a Class D airport so I got a workout on ATC procedures too. Under Part 61, which I just missed out on, I think they now have to do some kind of navigation review too.

rgmwa

 

 

[SSCBD]

That's certainly a pretty poor review session IMO. For my last GA BFR, apart from a 40 question test paper (which you can do in your own time beforehand), my instructor took me flying for about an hour and a half, which included 10 mins on instruments, steep turns, stalls, slips, incipient spin recovery, a forced landing, a series of unusual attitude recoveries on instruments (at my request), and finally a short field landing on returning to Jandakot, which is a Class D airport so I got a workout on ATC procedures too. Under Part 61, which I just missed out on, I think they now have to do some kind of navigation review too.rgmwa

Well mine came with the Part 61 signed off as well. Its all very strange . Did mine in class D also. ATC is easy really, its all read back and follow instructions.

 

 

[facthunter]

Pylon. It does read wrong . ( my post #7). Now corrected ..Nev

 

 

[Teckair]

Anybody who thinks they can ride that bike has no idea how riding a bike works. If you practiced long enough maybe you could but then you would not be able to ride a normal bike. I am not sure how that relates to flying accidents. What I think happens sometimes is, the more flying you do the better you think you are, because you are now so good you can get away with things less experienced people should not attempt. When doing a BFR for very experienced pilots who have had very few accidents I would talk about complacency but I did feel I was wasting my breath.

 

 

[pylon500]

Pylon. It does read wrong . ( my post #7). Now corrected ..Nev

Noted.

Slightly sideways to the thread, but the 'funny' pushbike thing has another answer that is somewhat applicable to flying in that both the pushbike and the aircraft are usually capable of controlling themselves.

 

You can ride a pushbike (a properly set up one) no hands, get it going and observe it's habits.

 

One of the first things I do with my students is to prove the fact that most aircraft will fly themselves, by trimming on climbout and letting the stick go.

 

I later tell them that I was cheating a bit, because I'm was still in control of the aircraft via the rudder pedals, but this gets them to release their 'death grip' on the stick and start feeling what the aeroplane is doing.

 

Obviously this is all done in a controlled environment, and the earlier the better, so that the feel and stability part is remembered, not so much the letting go of the stick bit.

 

This also quickens the learning how to trim part of training.

 

Once student know they don't have to 'hold the plane up in the air', they relax and can concentrate on learning better.

 

'Fly by attitude, then fly by feel, and if all else fails, read the instruments..'

 

Let the tirade begin...

 

 

[facthunter]

Hard to know what to call it. Did a front RHS seat ride from Newcastle to Sydney in an Embraier. in 69. I doubt the bloke flying knew I flew airlines . I didn't bother to mention it. I was only put there because no other seats were available. I'm just a passenger.

 

I would say more that familiarity breeds complacency and in a single pilot situation corners get cut (like Checks) when you do the same boring thing each day.

 

If you fly the same plane as well all the time you are getting it easy. You can push the limits over the fence with height and speed and land on a tennis court. It's like an old pair of shoes. You are used to it. You know exactly where all the controls you use regularly are

 

Are you safe?? Not if you skip checks and don't know your emergency procedures/ abnormals and your aircraft systems and keep a wary eye on things like elec system volts fuel management etc. Don't miss things. Maintain a disciplined approach to the job, or one day it will bite you..Nev

 

 

[farri]

Frank when I was staying with you, I told you one time, many many years ago (I think ) when I was a young bold pilot and bullet-proof like yourself but not pigheaded like you (smile Frank).

...Ok, You old sod! Young bold pilot, indeed! You telling me you`re not now, an old bold pilot........Good to see you on here.

 

Cheers,

 

Frank

 

 

[winsor68]

Hard to know what to call it. Did a front RHS seat ride from Newcastle to Sydney in an Embraier. in 69. I doubt the bloke flying knew I flew airlines . I didn't bother to mention it. I was only put there because no other seats were available. I'm just a passenger.I would say more that familiarity breeds complacency and in a single pilot situation corners get cut (like Checks) when you do the same boring thing each day.

If you fly the same plane as well all the time you are getting it easy. You can push the limits over the fence with height and speed and land on a tennis court. It's like an old pair of shoes. You are used to it. You know exactly where all the controls you use regularly are

 

Are you safe?? Not if you skip checks and don't know your emergency procedures/ abnormals and your aircraft systems and keep a wary eye on things like elec system volts fuel management etc. Don't miss things. Maintain a disciplined approach to the job, or one day it will bite you..Nev

...Familiarity breeds complacency...

 

If you fly the same plane as well all the time...

 

Yep... I wonder if anyone has done a study of accident data relating to this. Quite a few very experienced pilots have been killed in an aircraft besides their own ( in a recent case almost identical but not) over the last few years in accidents which to the casual observer don't make any sense...

 

 

 

[BlurE]

It's funny clearly knowing you need to apply the opposite input takes so much concentration.

 

I remember the first time I had a go in a trike. The pitch inputs were wrong more than once...

 

 

[facthunter]

The same kind of thing, as the reversed steering bike. I decided to not mix weightshift and 3 axis about 10 years ago, especially as I generally fly tailwheel types. The bike is very critical because as has been pointed out very well but I will repeat it , to turn a bike you must incline it towards the way you wish to turn. You do that with a slight turn of the handlebars in the opposite direction which makes the bike fall to the side you wish to lean to and you just hold or adjust that lean. That's a quite difficult thing to learn and be smooth at initially. Learners wobble a lot. Nev

 

 

[Garfly]

It's said that the Wright brothers got ahead of the Europeans precisely because they were bicycle guys; that the notion of leaning into the turn came naturally to them. (Then again, maybe they just observed birds better.) As the story goes, their competitors across the pond couldn't shake the turn paradigm of a stage coach. As some wit once said: "If you've been doing it that way for years, it's probably wrong." ;-)