When it all goes wrong!!!

[Garfly]

You will also notice that when we touch something hot we all scream in the same language.

Guernsey, here's evidence to back up your claim. ;-)

 

Plus we get a good idea of what an EFATO might really be like for us.

 

Go-Pro culture teaches stuff we could otherwise only imagine dimly.

 

 

 

[Robbo]

That would hurt.

 

 

[facthunter]

The Wrights had wing warping and the plane consequently had good manoeuvering ability. When they did eventually get to France and flew it the French were particularly impressed and ended up with a licence to build them there. They were obsessed with Patents and tried to sue everyone for anything that would allow a plane to be controlled in roll. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

The forced landing looks to be at pretty high speeeeed. Nev

 

 

[Garfly]

Yes, interesting how the first touch down was so fast he was able to hop over the hedge for another go. It shows that when the time comes we've microseconds to decide; that survival depends on our ability to think and act aeronautically under pressure.

 

 

[Teckair]

That would hurt.

He went straight ahead but that was about it.

 

 

[Teckair]

The forced landing looks to be at pretty high speeeeed. Nev

Yes that is what happens if you don't practice your glide approaches.

 

 

[Garfly]

Glide departures?

 

 

[pylon500]

Of course having hindsight is pointless to him, but some things to note;

 

•It's a two stroke Pulsar, ie; fairly quick but has flaps.

 

•Motor gave first signs about five to eight seconds earlier (usually all you get) but he didn't seem to react until it run down to seizure?

 

•Interesting to note the rpm build up after lift off?

 

Not sure if overly coarse prop holding engine below powerband until speed attained, or prop set too fine and not loading the engine by climbing after lift off.

 

There is a third effect (which I know of from experience) that he may have 'cooked' the engine on the previous flight.

 

I inadvertently did this to a 582 some years back during a long descent, but as I didn't need any power for the rest of the landing, the engine kept going.

 

It was the next week that I took off, and the engine ran for about the same length of time as in the video, then started to drop off [by which time I was already picking options] before failing completely. I only lost one cylinder, so the motor ran for about eight~ten seconds at reduced power before stopping completely and against supposedly better judgement, I had began to turn back and got back on the strip.

 

•Can't see if he applied flaps to slow the glide (in a plane of that performance and with all the landing spots around him, best L/D glide clean, was not really needed. Look at all the roads below to the left, looks like a new estate, just roads, no houses.

 

•In a clean plane like that, and at the speed he was climbing, he didn't need to jam the stick forward to maintain speed, but still had a long 'This can't be happening to me!' moment.

 

In my failure, I had the nose level at the first change of engine note, and was already descending back to the strip before it stopped, had about 400ft

 

•Can't tell if he checked his ASI once in the glide, or just followed the programmed training of 'dive at the ground to maintain speed'?

 

As a side note, applying a little bit of flap (take off or less) while degrading the glide performance, gives you that little bit of extra washout, which can protect you a little from ham-fisted control inputs.

 

In my failure, I still had takeoff flap, about 10º

 

•Just before the final touchdown, he looked to have a lot of rudder on and almost locked to be dropping the left wing at impact?

 

I guess EVERY take off is a case of; 'I'm going down there, then there, then there, until you know you can get back, which might not be until turning downwind, or later!

 

 

[Teckair]

I took a second look that looks like tail wheel Pulsar, a very slippery aircraft, the speed will build up if you put the nose down like that. I had a engine failure after take off in the same type of aircraft as that only this one had a 912. I think mine was a bit higher than that one maybe 800 ft we were able to get back on the strip but were too high to go straight in, first thing to do, get the airspeed stabilised at 65 kts with flap down. Then I did a dog leg to get rid of some height then I was too low so flap comes off. Without flap I made the strip at an ideal height then the flap goes back down and a successful landing with no damage. The hairiest dead stick I ever did only made possible because I always practice glide approaches.

 

 

[farri]

Problem with a lot of LSA is the speed they need to come in at! The nose needs to come up to slow them down, which means less or no visibility ahead and most have a nose wheel leg, not suitable for rough terrane.

 

 

[Garfly]

Remember that Heathrow, 2008 event where a BA captain's split second decision on short-short-final to retract some flap, and stretch the glide that crucial wee bit, saved a 777 full of folks - maybe more on the ground.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_rLiHYTHnA

 

 

[facthunter]

Bit of good sleuthing on the cause of that one. The culprit had melted . Fuel/lube oil heat exchangers make sense in that the more power the hotter the oil and the higher fuel flow enables more cool fuel to be warmed to a temperature where the ice melts. That's OK downstream of the heater but these lumps came from upstream. It's a wonder really that hasn't happened before.. Cruising OAT's are often near minus 60 c plus about 33 degrees for warming due to speed through the air, still leaves a fuel temp of minus 27 degrees C on a long flight when it's cold soaked. Nev

 

 

[biggles]

I`m interested in the accidents involving RA-Aus pilots and I would like the focus of any discussion, on this thread, to remain there.A certain amount of the accidents have occurred to very experienced pilots who were supposed to have been well trained.

 

It has been said, the accidents continue to occur for the same old reasons! If that is the case! Is the instruction being given, adequate?

 

N

 

Can any amount of training, prepare someone, for the unexpected?

 

Frank.

Frank , with the intention of revitalising this thread I looked at the 2014 Accidents and Incidents on the RAAus site . There you will find 33 pages (yes 33 pages for 2014 only) of almost every conceivable incident/accident you can imagine . An exhaustive analysis would take some time , time that I haven't got right now, but you may have Frank. All you need to do is hang out the " Beware of the CROCODILES " sign on the gate, to keep your old girlfriends away, and then get to it !

 

Seriously though ,I can't see any common factor , other than the fact that many are Human Factors related .

 

'Training' , well maybe some aspects ,but it needs to be meaningful . I'm sure many pilots would offer suggestions as to how training can be improved , but increasing training hours/cost may not necessarily achieve a better result, and just make getting a pilot cert.more restrictive to some .New pilots have a fair bit to cope with these days particularly in and around busy places like Cabooture/Caloundra, and I don't think new pilots feature more predominantly than others, maybe with the exception of ground handling ,loss of control when landing etc. , probably quite the reverse is more the case . Humans are complex creatures and we are all wired differently, and often how we respond to a given set of circumstances, depends on many overlaying factors ( eg . family, mortgage, employment, to name a few )A response to a certain threat may even change slightly on a minute to minute basis, and that slight alteration in itself ,might turn out to be fatal. Just a few days ago an old friend told me that an instructor showed him how to 'safely turn back from an engine failure at 300' !I sometimes wonder if we will ever get the message through. Engine failures on take off are a subject on their own, and could occupy hours of discussion . I prefer to just keep it simple, and avoid the turn back until at least cct. ht. , as there are just too many things to consider at the time . Just get the nose down 'quick' and look for a suitable paddock . Of course we did consider all the options before we departed didn't we ?. We noted wind direction , velocity , cleared areas surrounding our extended runway , after all we did have to get in there in the first place, didn't we ?, we carried out proper pre take off checks, in accordance with POH , not necessarily what the other bloke does . So we can now take off with confidence, knowing full well our options should the unthinkable occur . Looking back at my training years ago ,it was probably 'just adequate', but more time and money may have turned me away ..... Bob

 

 

[facthunter]

What really alerted me to some aspects of " A" problem (because there is not" THE" problem) was when flying with pilots to fly something different or sequence revision I would ask . Why didn't you do "this" ( Some little action to do with refining a technique ), and the answer would be "I didn't know you could do that." Some of this was pretty basic stuff fairly essential in what I would call normal ops.

 

Also a fear of flying slow, doing a sideslip properly, reluctance to use power in gusty conditions, no increase in approach speed when heavy or gusty. weight kept off nosewheel Aileron into wind on X/W takeoffs and clean unstick. Things like that. Just confident and full control of the aircraft. I've read heartbreaking accident reports where pilots have killed themselves and sometimes a young sibling in conditions they shouldn't have been in or just didn't handle well. Its not a place I want to visit where a student of mine dies or is hurt in such circumstances as my instruction being less than adequate. I'm not into increasing cost without some idea that it will improve things. More adequate briefings and debriefing's perhaps. Nev

 

 

[DrZoos]

Also a fear of flying slow, Nev

There are not too many pilots at airfields with plenty of runway length that died from flying 5-10 knots too quick, but there are plenty of fatalities from flying too slow... I wish that had been drummed into me over and over from day 1... Im not scared of flying slow, but I sure have a very healthy respect and wish every student pilot knew the dangers of flying slow in detail and the dangers of using bottom rudder to attempt to rush turns at low speed.

 

 

[Yenn]

There may not be many die from flying too fast at long runways, but what happens when those pilos try flying in to short runways.

 

I like to practice slow flying regularly, 5 or 10kts above stall speed and the feel is completely different, plus you must use rudder more than aileron to pick up a falling wing. Go out and try it at a safe height and when you feel confident try it in the circuit.

 

I did a practice forced landing this morning and from being what appeared low at 500' I then had to slip like mad as the wind must have eased off. I ended up being well into the field and if I had had that extra speed I would have been through the far fence.

 

 

[facthunter]

I'm not suggesting to fly slower that what is safe in the conditions but, IF you can't fly slow and competently you will not perform well in a forced landing into a tight spot, or say, a go around at some critical point, etc... Extra care is needed and it should be shown the respect it needs, but I did say a FEAR. It's part of your skills base. Not something to be avoided. Nev

 

 

[DrZoos]

Agreed, i do practice flying slow for the reasons you guys say, but i dont regularly come in slow except when im practicing STOLS.. I do regularly land at Old Bar which is 540ish m grass, with high trees at one end, a surf club and trees at the other, light posts immediately adjacent and occasionally a Ferris Wheel or two..

 

But it does concern me how many people dont seem to know the real dangers of flying slow , especially when combined with turning and gusty conditions... At least a few discussions about it might let others go do some reading about it...

 

I like to regularly say that not many people die flying 5-10 knots too fast, but plenty die going 5-10 knots too slow...

 

Point taken and definitely agreed with on STOLS and emergency landings...no extra speed wanted there...

 

 

[facthunter]

In a turn which is where most stall problems that bring you unstuck originate, your safe speed is constantly changing .... Hands up who has ever been tested stalling in a turn. Nev

 

 

[DrZoos]

no hand up here...

 

 

[DWF]

The First Commandment for Pilots:

 

 

Maintain thy airspeed lest the Earth arise and smite thee.

 

DWF

 

 

[facthunter]

Any more takers? I haven't........Till I did recoveries from unusual attitudes UNDER THE HOOD much later, but I'm not suggesting THAT has to be done. Nev

 

 

[djpacro]

.... Hands up who has ever been tested stalling in a turn. Nev

Training in stalls in turns etc is required per CASA's new Part 61 MOS. Beware of breaking the law wrt aerobatics as CASA has redefined it. Not on the RPL test however.

[Teckair]

In a turn which is where must stall problems that bring you unstuck originate your safe speed is constantly changing .... Hands up who has ever been tested stalling in a turn. Nev

Me, and it is demonstrated to all students prior to issue of pilot certificate.