When it all goes wrong!!!

[facthunter]

That's not a test though. Tecky. Unless things have changed we don't do spiral recovery training either. There's a good reason to not do it in some planes. Particularly a Skyfox or a Gazelle. Nev

 

 

[farri]

I`ve never

 

Agreed, i do practice flying slow for the reasons you guys say.

But, do you practice stalls?

 

These days I only fly the Drifter but after 30+ years of flying, I still practice stalls and dead stick landings and only fly within gliding distance of a suitable landing area....As I`m flying along, I say to myself, "If the engine stops right now, I`m going down there"... I pick my spot before an engine failure, not wait until it stops to decide which spot to pick.

 

I haven`t had an engine failure for many years, but I did have more than my fair share in the early days!...Grey head Rotax 582...I wore out 4 of them.

 

Frank.

 

 

[nong]

That's not a test though. Tecky. Unless things have changed we don't do spiral recovery training either. There's a good reason to not do it in some planes. Particularly a Skyfox or a Gazelle. Nev

I reckon spiral recovery is basic steering and therefore essential. Up and over for a low entry speed. Lots of good discussion points are raised with this valuable exercise as, of course, you know.

We really must get that silly aerobatics restriction lifted. It was only put in place because of the realities of ultralighting as it was then.

 

You could bet that some manufacturer would soon come up with a Chipmunk for this century, a rugged aerobatic trainer.

 

 

[dutchroll]

In a turn which is where must stall problems that bring you unstuck originate your safe speed is constantly changing .... Hands up who has ever been tested stalling in a turn. Nev

That was a requirement in my basic flying training. However I'm sure it's not often done in the civilian world, and we're talking about an entirely different training standard (no offence to anyone - obviously it's that way through necessity).

 

 

[facthunter]

Nong. I thought Bill Whitney's Boomerang was such an aircraft. Purpose built trainer. Nev

 

 

[Ayecapt]

Hi fairly new here but i have been pondering why it seems to me that some very senior pilots get into situations that lead to a serious incident. And yet on the roads it appears that its the young drivers that are at risk .

 

I dont believe its anything to do with the quality of formal training . I can remember the moment i went solo on my bike. Like in the video somthing just clicked. Likewise the landing flare and touchdown , it took forever but it clicked one day. So i believe that senior pilots haven't unlearnt anything its all clicked in. Maybe they attempt to perform flying tasks that bring more satisfaction. It is the basis of human factors that we are trying to get a handle on. I remember when i started out I wanted to be as far away from the ground as i could. The ground was the enemy. Now i notice i am happy enough to drop down for a better look at that island etc. i am starting to think that flying hours vs safety will cross at some point, what is the result of being behind that curve? More research is needed.

 

Thanks Brian

 

 

[facthunter]

Aye Capt. There would be a lot of factors in these matters. All people are different, and human factors are considered a lot these days. Most organisations want experienced flight crew world wide, but if you look at a lot of accident reports, the standard and appropriateness of the training has been a big causal factor . When this has been found to be the case retraining is done in the area where the weakness is detected straight away, often insisted on by the manufacturer. . Welcome to the forum by the way. Nev

 

 

[Aldo]

In a turn which is where most stall problems that bring you unstuck originate your safe speed is constantly changing .... Hands up who has ever been tested stalling in a turn. Nev

Yes Nev was taught to me during training with particular emphasis on the outside (upper) wing stalling and recovery from incipient and full spins. Most recent was during my BFR earlier this year.

 

Aldo

 

 

[Teckair]

That's not a test though.

Correct it is not, I am not sure how practical it would be to make students do it, or how much value it would be, teaching to avoid it in the first place might be better. The most common problem is the turn onto final which is too low for recovery. The steering on final with rudder is a recipe for disaster in the event of a engine failure and yet there are so many being taught to do that.

 

 

[facthunter]

Tightening a turn with rudder at a slow speed is deadly. The most likely situation is with a base which has a downwind component and you are going to (or have) overshoot/shot, the centre line and attempt to correct it. Here we are at around 500 ft having never been given low level instruction and falling foul of not having been trained properly in that area.. When the nose drops a little extra back stick and you're DEAD. Nev

 

 

[DrZoos]

I`ve neverBut, do you practice stalls?

Glide approaches regularly, stalls and steep turns regularly, STOLS regularly and a bunch of other stuff.. I enjoy that stuff and regard it as essential.. im currently flying around 150hrs plus per year and doing some or all of these almost every 2 hours or so ... so yeh..

 

But no I have not done stalls in turns and wont until Im under the hood doing my RPL basic IFR recoveries... or my instrucotr rating in an aircraft and with an instructor where its safe to do so...

 

Stalls in turns imo is not in the RAA course and its not safe in many RAA planes and for that matter with many instructors who are not current in doing so...or are not GA and possibly aerobatic certified...depending on the aircraft... I ain't going upside down or into a deep spiral or spin to find out if they or the plane can do it or recover...

 

I have practiced flying on rudder at 4000ft just above stall spped and thats interesting and a great learning experience... for rudder control and a mushy plane...

 

 

[DrZoos]

Tightening a turn with rudder at a slow speed is deadly. The most likely situation is with a base which has a downwind component and you are going to (or have) overshoot/shot, the centre line and attempt to correct it. Here we are at around 500 ft having never been given low level instruction and falling foul of not having been trained properly in that area.. When the nose drops a little extra back stick and you're DEAD. Nev

Before you can touch ajoystick and every time you get in a plane for instruction they should tell you this...there is no recovery and in my short aviation experience...it shore seems to be prevalent in many many accidents i read about...

 

The three killers i continually read about are , low level stalls in turns or EFATO , flying into IMC and fule / engine outs...

 

 

[facthunter]

Yes mushy, means slow and you would be taught that in your Straight and Level lesson, if it was done properly. ALL the controls feel mushy. Be careful or you will overheat your engine in this event if you prolong it. I'm talking to the whole audience here, when I say that. Experienced pilots know it, or bloody should.

 

I've long said Instructors in RAAus should have been checked out in unusual attitude recovery, but you can't do that in an RAAus plane. Well that's not an insurmountable problem is it?. A spiral will load an airframe but a spin won't. You could spin a weak airframe all the way to the ground and the loads don't increase. In the pullout you often see 2.5 "G" and I'm not sure you could guarantee much less.

 

Spiral training and recovery were not permitted the last time I looked, but it is critical to recognise it and recover (get wings level) very quickly. If you get into cloud even briefly you are more likely to spiral out of it than spin. It used to be called the "graveyard " spiral. Nothings changed. Nev

 

 

[nong]

To Farri's question...

 

Knowledge, judgement and practised skill is unevenly spread through the pilot population, as indeed, is the absence of these qualities.

 

Some seek to improve their knowledge, judgement and skill . Many aren't that interested.

 

Some are actively resistant.

 

The raw human material is quite varied.

 

We have the physically fit, quick thinking twenty year old, with a great maths and physics basis.

 

We have others who are poorly educated, slow thinking, or life situation impaired, in varying degrees and combinations.

 

Individual pilots often manage to get a lot of flying done, over a long time span, before their incapacity is revealed, one way or another.

 

Being well known, or popular socially, has nothing to do with the above realities.

 

There are two available defences.

 

Maintain a quest for both broad and specialised knowledge, across all disciplines of piloting and aviation more broadly.

 

Seek to get as much 'hands on' piloting and aviation practice as you can handle.

 

or.....

 

Give the game away........until later, or permanently.

 

 

[Teckair]

Yes mushy, means slow and you would be taught that in your Straight and Level lesson,

Actually it is in the 'effect of controls' lesson first up.

 

 

[facthunter]

Think you might be loading them up at that stage to make them fly slow at EC. That's only my opinion. No harm in mentioning it That's nearly the first air lesson.

 

I think it fits nicely at S&L where the whole speed range is explored and trimming to remove control forces and nose attitude variation with speed changes at constant height can be sorted out. The firmness and response of the controls at high speed contrasts with the sloppy light and unresponsiveness at slow speeds. Everyone thinks "Straight and level ? What's to know about that? anyone can do it." many still fly on trim hunting through a level. Starting to climb again as speed increases after levelling off.. Nev

 

 

[Teckair]

Think you might be loading them up at that stage to make them fly slow at EC. That's only my opinion. No harm in mentioning it That's nearly the first air lesson.

They are only following through at that point but that is how the syllabus says we are supposed to do things.

 

 

[facthunter]

We may be splitting hairs here. To bring to a student's attention that control response is less effective at low speed and better at higher speeds and that applies to ALL controls is fair enough.. and no problem mentioning it early . You might also say don't be rough on the controls. If the syllabus says so then cover it. I believe It fits well with S&L in a practical flying sequence and have said why above.

 

It can actually be a fairly unconvincing demonstration on some aircraft especially some that don't really have a large speed range or a lot of trim change with speed change. A Jabiru 230 does it OK in that respect. Nev.

 

 

[Ayecapt]

Stalls on final or the turn onto final. In these incidents I guess the airspeed was too low for the angle of bank and perhaps pilots were dragging the aircraft in because they were too low to start with? So they want to be at their approach speed but also want to at least to slow the decent. Power is applied but a nose high attitude is maintained or even increased then they are behind the power curve. In summary the pilot is trying to salvage a lousy approach. The question to me is why not go around, apply full power , lower the nose , regain speed and then height. The need to land is a compelling force in our brain . We seem able to go around if we muck up the round out and flare but do not seem able to make early decisions to go around when the approach is lousy. If it dont feel right then it aint right. This can include too high, too low, too fast and too slow.

 

The term "I am attempting a landing " should be used more (at least in your own mind ) and go arounds should be seen as a sign of a quality decision making by the pilot . Not a sign of a bad pilot .

 

Oh and thanks for welcome to the forum ...cheers. Brian

 

 

[DWF]

..................... Spiral training and recovery were not permitted the last time I looked, [not true]but it is critical to recognise it and recover (get wings level) very quickly. If you get into cloud even briefly you are more likely to spiral out of it than spin. It used to be called the "graveyard " spiral. [Agree]

Nothings changed. Nev

Spiral dive recognition and recovery is in the RAAus syllabus under "11.2 Other abnormal or emergency situations".

 

Most RAAus aircraft (or at leaslt the LSAs mostly used for training) are approved for turns up to 60 degrees AoB.

 

If you are going to teach steep turns to 60 deg you should also be teaching spiral dive recovery! Falling out of a steep turn is IMHO the most likely scenario to result in entry to a spiral dive.

 

Technique: Power OFF, roll wings level, pull out of the dive (without pulling the wings off), nose high in the green arc - apply power to regain height.

 

[Avoid roll and pitch changes at the same time to limit twisting stress on the airframe.

 

The instructor has to be on the ball to prevent the situation going too far as in a slippery aircraft Vne approaches VERY quickly!]

 

DWF

 

 

[facthunter]

How can you assert that the last time "I" looked, spiral dive action and recovery is not permitted in RAAus aircraft is NOT true? I can assure you that was the case and there is a good reason for it. At about 80 knots with a Gazelle being subjecting to moderate"G" forces the wing will come off in twist, and it has occurred killing two people Nev

 

 

[DWF]

How can you assert that the last time "I" looked, spiral dive action and recovery is not permitted in RAAus aircraft is NOT true? I can assure you that was the case and there is a good reason for it. At about 80 knots with a Gazelle being subjecting to moderate"G" forces the wing will come off in twist, and it has occurred killing two people Nev

OK. My point was the FACT that spiral dive recognition and recovery is permitted (required) in the current RAAus syllabus.

 

I was not referring to when YOU last looked at the syllabus, which must have been some time ago as Issue 7 has been there since October 2014 and "6.3.4 Recovery is made from spiral dive with due regard to low drag/higher inertia design." was in Issue 6 which was current for quite a number of years before that.

 

I have owned and operated a Skyfox taildragger and 2 Gazelles and managed not to pull the wings off despite teaching steep turns and spiral dive recovery - given the caveats in my post #70 above.

 

You are correct, however, in your assertion that it has to be done carefully and without overstressing the aircraft.

 

DWF

 

 

[facthunter]

They actually twist off due to the fairly unique wing section.( Undercamber.) One strut ends up in compression and the jury strut fails first. It's not a Vne problem alone. It's movement of centre of lift. with "G" force (Higher AoA. You are running a big risk doing it. Nev

 

 

[geoffreywh]

the guy in the video quotes a saying thus "as easy as riding a bike"....this is nonsense, the expression goes " as easy as falling off a bike" ...........get it right mate

 

 

[Spooks]

In a turn which is where most stall problems that bring you unstuck originate, your safe speed is constantly changing .... Hands up who has ever been tested stalling in a turn. Nev

I am currently doing the NPPL in the UK and the instructor has been quite thorough with stalling exercises. Stalling in a turn especially, as he pointed out that most people stall while concentrating on the base leg turn and momentarily forget their airspeed (obviously doubly dangerous due to low altitude!)

 

Unfortunately we cannot do spin training (until instructor rating).