landing and brake use

[johnm]

There's a fair bit of talk in another thread about approach speeds for landing

 

What about braking - if you have brakes - apart from brake testing at initial taxi and return to hangar ............. may be a dab after flare to see if they are there

 

How much do you rely on brakes after flare ?

 

Seems to me best way is try and not rely on brakes to make the plane fit the strip ............... just in case those brakes are not there or are not as good as you thought they were ?

 

 

[Doug Evans]

I don't use brakes at all landing only for run ups and turning in tight areas in my Lightwing !

 

Under normal flights landing speed for my craft is 55 / 50 kn over the fence and if I require short field depending on load I come in Over the fence at 40/45 Kn this give me a ground roll around 60 m depending on wind can be a lot shorter ,

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

A dab on your brakes should be part of downwind checks just to make sure you have even pressure in both pedals or other application device. Nothing worse than needing brakes and finding it's 'exit stage left or right'. Example, recently happened to the Bugatti 101 on it's maiden hop.

 

 

[Yenn]

Why will dabbing brakes on downwind tell you you have brakes. If they were working for the run up, they should still work on landing. If the dab says you still have brakes, you could still be without them at landing because it only takes one touch to empty the system if you have a leak.

 

 

[Russ]

The one grype with my 160 jab............p!ss weak brakes, good for a moment or 2, then fade away. ( landed long on bitumen one time, the looming fence got me clacker valve going )

 

All in view of RPT full of pax..

 

 

[Camel]

The one grype with my 160 jab............p!ss weak brakes, good for a moment or 2, then fade away. ( landed long on bitumen one time, the looming fence got me clacker valve going )All in view of RPT full of pax..

Use automotive brake material and cut to size or buy from http://www.parts4aircraft.oxatis.com/PBSCProduct.asp?ItmID=9383127

 

I have automotive material on mine and stops well and very little fade.

 

 

[Jabiru7252]

The one grype with my 160 jab............p!ss weak brakes, good for a moment or 2, then fade away. ( landed long on bitumen one time, the looming fence got me clacker valve going )All in view of RPT full of pax..

I'd suggest your brakes need work because it's not a known gripe with the J160 or J170. I have heard the J230 could do with better brakes. I once had the brakes lock on (due to the silly design) after landing, a dreadful experience.

 

 

[SSCBD]

This is what you need below;) Just use it when landed.

 

 

 

[farri]

If you need brakes on landing, you got it wrong!

 

Frank.

 

 

[facthunter]

The brake check pre landing on U/L's is primarily to make sure they are OFF. You only need them generally on sealed runways at our landing speeds. Unless you run something decent, (Discs or clevelands) most brakes are not made for use at high speed and they can fail at any time. (usually when you press them the hardest. I've had an exception to that with a long taxi downwind and prolonged use of very light intermittent braking, the master cyl on one side eventually went to the stop and wouldn't recover with the fluid passing the cupped rubber which needs pressure to force it onto the cylinder wall. It was probably nearly dead anyhow) Nev

 

 

[Russ]

If you need brakes on landing, you got it wrong! Frank.

rubbish...........

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

If you need brakes on landing, you got it wrong! Frank.

Says you puddle jumper, wait till you fly several thousand KGs worth and use minimal strip. Even with an old Thruster in gusty winds wishing for a bit of brake just to make it easier. Few times rudder was not enough and getting to turn sometimes meant a 270 was the way to go.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Why will dabbing brakes on downwind tell you you have brakes. If they were working for the run up, they should still work on landing. If the dab says you still have brakes, you could still be without them at landing because it only takes one touch to empty the system if you have a leak.

Checking for even pedal pressure with that little dab, If you have pressure then bloody good chance you have brakes. You may have had brakes during that run up but who knows what happened taking off from that unimproved track, rock or stick damaged a line. If that little dab empties the system then better it happens on the PRE LANDING CHECK than when rolling out with trees the next option in stopping power. Some people like surprises, I don't! I'll keep on with the pro active way.

 

 

[facthunter]

Oh c'mon ozzie, most of the brakes are a joke and little use except for turning and a short engine run if you are lucky You've got little weight on the wheels for the first part of your landing roll anyhow unless you can push the stick forward on a taildragger (with prop clearance). Nev

 

 

[farri]

rubbish...........

:rofl:Knew I`d get ya!!!!

 

Frank.

 

 

[facthunter]

It depends on the length of the grass. If it's long enough that'll trip you up. Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

Ozzie. What I was trying to say is that it doesn't matter how many times you try the brakes. If you have a leak or low fluid, the next dab may be the one that doesn't work. If they worked when you did the run up, they were OK but may be one dab from failure. That one dab on downwind could be the last time they work. So you sit there thinking they work OK, but they won't.

 

I don't fancy pushing the nose forward and using brakes, even with good prop clearance. As the nose goes forward, so does the C of G and the tail raises easier. there is usually plenty of help from the high angle of attack causing a lot of drag.

 

 

[farri]

Says you puddle jumper, wait till you fly several thousand KGs worth and use minimal strip.

Exactly! So go back and read the initial post! You obviously missed the fact that no particular type of aircraft has been mentioned...As far as I`m concerned, you can`t have an accurate and meaningful discussion by talking generally!

 

Frank.

 

 

[facthunter]

It's a way of getting weight on the wheels. It's the technique used for emergency stopping a DC3. If you are an unconverted bulldozer driver you can bend props, or put it on it's nose. Having brakes on hard when no airflow over the rear horiz stab/elevators is no place to be. Agree on that.. I also agree about testing brakes . They get tested most when doing an engine runup when they usually creep forward despite you pressing hard. Just because they worked last time doesn't mean they will work the next time..Nev

 

 

[Russ]

2 aircraft that definately, absolutely.......do not need brakes........helos and gyros.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

2 aircraft that definately, absolutely.......do not need brakes........helos and gyros.

what about wheeled versions. skids i can believe .

 

 

[kaz3g]

The one grype with my 160 jab............p!ss weak brakes, good for a moment or 2, then fade away. ( landed long on bitumen one time, the looming fence got me clacker valve going )All in view of RPT full of pax..

Hi Russ

 

Austers are well known to have a wish and think brake set-up...you wish they would work better and think about where you will go if they fade altogether.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Oh c'mon ozzie, most of the brakes are a joke and little use except for turning and a short engine run if you are lucky You've got little weight on the wheels for the first part of your landing roll anyhow unless you can push the stick forward on a taildragger (with prop clearance). Nev

I added a bit about aircraft brakes but it started to get a bit long winded. Going back to the early days of Condors and Thrusters with non steerable tail wheels and no brakes once you know the types the extremely large rudder makes for a very effective brake and where to position the aircraft on landing to take advantage of 'S' turning to give you more runway distance to stop. Early hours on the twin otter when trying to STOL it on it was tempting to jump on the brakes as soon as it touched down. That was the wrong way to do as it made the aircraft directionly unstable easily locked wheels and just wore them out prematurely. Best to touch down use reverse thrust to kill lift and put weight on the wheels and only use brakes during the last part of the roll out, and stay off the tiller above 25kts. Again a huge rudder works down to low speeds. So brakes if you have em, learn how to use em.

 

 

[facthunter]

Nothing is as straightforward as it would appear to be. Most larger aircraft without antiskid are just SO easy to blow tyres. Twin otters can end up off the side. The POH for the Citabria recommended to NOT use brakes for directional control at speed.( Clevelands) I would go along with that. The rudder is the main way.

 

Plenty of time on Tigers with no brakes. Tailskid on grass.. after 3 point landing( which was most common ONCE) you aren't going very fast... fine. Auster brakes Heel applied and press like hell. but you really only need them when you are turning sharply when parking? Oh and on sealed runways with slight downwind Recency required... Maybe modern teflon lined cables might change things but One I had flown way back ended on it's nose, fairly recently with only the brakes to blame. Inso much as if it had none it wouldn't have happened. Fierce use of brakes on a T/W requires the main wheels be located further forward, which makes the plane a better ground looper. Not a good feature. Nev

 

 

[Jaba-who]

The one grype with my 160 jab............p!ss weak brakes, good for a moment or 2, then fade away. ( landed long on bitumen one time, the looming fence got me clacker valve going )All in view of RPT full of pax..

I am not sure about jabiru7252's comment about 160 and 170s but pretty much every 230/430 I know of around here had trouble with fade on the brakes. Mine certainly did. Three of us have upgraded to the latest jabiru brakes ( I think they go by the name of Mark 3 brakes) and they are universally light years ahead of the old ones. In fact the only problem I have is locking up due to being too good. Have to to apply moderately to gently.

 

As for whether you need brakes or not. Well it's entirely dependant on your conditions. My home strip is a constant mild to knarly cross wind with a rising strip and first taxiway nearer the threshold than is ideal for a fast landing. So if you are in that sort condition with a fast landing speed you might use brakes a lot.