Perfect wings

[winsor68]

Chimp War ----> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombe_Chimpanzee_War

 

Dolphin Rape ---->

 

 

The concept of the nobel and kind animal as opposed to the cruel and heartless human is old, illogical and false.

 

Rather...mankind is the ONLY animal that can choose to act in a kind and caring way toward other sentient beings. It is true a lot of us don't and that is appalling...but we can...

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...mankind is the ONLY animal that can choose to act in a kind and caring way toward other sentient beings. It is true a lot of us don't and that is appalling...but we can...

There are plenty of examples-even on You Tube- of animals showing kindness and compassion to other species.

 

 

[Marty_d]

The sad thing is, humans SHOULD be more ethical than animals because of our greater intelligence - but we aren't. It ain't the other animals causing mass extinctions and screwing the climate.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Before the west stuffed it up, many Antipodeans of my generation experienced extreme hospitality when travelling overland to Europe via Afghanistan, Iran and Turkey.

 

Good manners, compassion and courtesy seem to be almost universal traits, but too often over-ridden by the worst aspects of human nature- which religion and nationalism prey upon.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Creation is amazing, speaks of the design skills of the creator of course. Thanks for the photos HIC, nice.

Jesus thinks of everything

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

The sad thing is, humans SHOULD be more ethical than animals because of our greater intelligence - but we aren't.

As an atheist you have no basis for your claim. Ethics can be whatever the individual chooses them to be, or none.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

This is the thing right, Jesus said to lay waste to the money changers

 

Balak Summons Balaam

 

1Then the Israelites traveled to the plains of Moab and camped along the Jordan across from Jericho.

 

2Now Balak son of Zippor saw all that Israel had done to the Amorites, 3and Moab was terrified because there were so many people. Indeed, Moab was filled with dread because of the Israelites.

 

4The Moabites said to the elders of Midian, “This horde is going to lick up everything around us, as an ox licks up the grass of the field.”

 

So Balak son of Zippor, who was king of Moab at that time, 5sent messengers to summon Balaam son of Beor, who was at Pethor, near the Euphrates River, in his native land. Balak said:

 

“A people has come out of Egypt; they cover the face of the land and have settled next to me. 6Now come and put a curse on these people, because they are too powerful for me. Perhaps then I will be able to defeat them and drive them out of the land. For I know that whoever you bless is blessed, and whoever you curse is cursed.”

 

7The elders of Moab and Midian left, taking with them the fee for divination. When they came to Balaam, they told him what Balak had said.

 

8“Spend the night here,” Balaam said to them, “and I will report back to you with the answer the Lord gives me.” So the Moabite officials stayed with him.

 

9God came to Balaam and asked, “Who are these men with you?”

 

10Balaam said to God, “Balak son of Zippor, king of Moab, sent me this message: 11‘A people that has come out of Egypt covers the face of the land. Now come and put a curse on them for me. Perhaps then I will be able to fight them and drive them away.’ ”

 

12But God said to Balaam, “Do not go with them. You must not put a curse on those people, because they are blessed.”

 

13The next morning Balaam got up and said to Balak’s officials, “Go back to your own country, for the Lord has refused to let me go with you.”

 

14So the Moabite officials returned to Balak and said, “Balaam refused to come with us.”

 

15Then Balak sent other officials, more numerous and more distinguished than the first. 16They came to Balaam and said:

 

“This is what Balak son of Zippor says: Do not let anything keep you from coming to me, 17because I will reward you handsomely and do whatever you say. Come and put a curse on these people for me.”

 

18But Balaam answered them, “Even if Balak gave me all the silver and gold in his palace, I could not do anything great or small to go beyond the command of the Lord my God. 19Now spend the night here so that I can find out what else the Lord will tell me.”

 

20That night God came to Balaam and said, “Since these men have come to summon you, go with them, but do only what I tell you.”

 

Balaam’s Donkey

 

21Balaam got up in the morning, saddled his donkey and went with the Moabite officials. 22But God was very angry when he went, and the angel of the Lord stood in the road to oppose him. Balaam was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him. 23When the donkey saw the angel of the Lord standing in the road with a drawn sword in his hand, it turned off the road into a field. Balaam beat it to get it back on the road.

 

24Then the angel of the Lord stood in a narrow path through the vineyards, with walls on both sides. 25When the donkey saw the angel of the Lord, it pressed close to the wall, crushing Balaam’s foot against it. So he beat the donkey again.

 

26Then the angel of the Lord moved on ahead and stood in a narrow place where there was no room to turn, either to the right or to the left. 27When the donkey saw the angel of the Lord, it lay down under Balaam, and he was angry and beat it with his staff. 28Then the Lord opened the donkey’s mouth, and it said to Balaam, “What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?”

 

29Balaam answered the donkey, “You have made a fool of me! If only I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now.”

 

30The donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?”

 

“No,” he said.

 

31Then the Lord opened Balaam’s eyes, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell facedown.

 

32The angel of the Lord asked him, “Why have you beaten your donkey these three times? I have come here to oppose you because your path is a reckless one before me.a 33The donkey saw me and turned away from me these three times. If it had not turned away, I would certainly have killed you by now, but I would have spared it.”

 

34Balaam said to the angel of the Lord, “I have sinned. I did not realize you were standing in the road to oppose me. Now if you are displeased, I will go back.”

 

35The angel of the Lord said to Balaam, “Go with the men, but speak only what I tell you.” So Balaam went with Balak’s officials.

 

36When Balak heard that Balaam was coming, he went out to meet him at the Moabite town on the Arnon border, at the edge of his territory. 37Balak said to Balaam, “Did I not send you an urgent summons? Why didn’t you come to me? Am I really not able to reward you?”

 

38“Well, I have come to you now,” Balaam replied. “But I can’t say whatever I please. I must speak only what God puts in my mouth.”

 

39Then Balaam went with Balak to Kiriath Huzoth.

 

40Balak sacrificed cattle and sheep, and gave some to Balaam and the officials who were with him.

 

41The next morning Balak took Balaam up to Bamoth Baal, and from there he could see the outskirts of the Israelite camp.

 

are you ready for a snooze after reading that?

 

 

[Marty_d]

As an atheist you have no basis for your claim. Ethics can be whatever the individual chooses them to be, or none.

You're confusing religion with ethics. They have nothing to do with each other.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Not at all. Atheists have no moral basis to claim that any form of ethics - or no ethics at all - is right or wrong.

 

You might not like to hear this but you certainly can't disprove the statement.

 

 

[Bikky]

.... and neither can you prove it! You could start by explaining why you think ethics is the sole domain of believers.

 

 

[facthunter]

I would like examples of where believers generally throughout the world currently, are behaving ethically and well. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

1 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. 2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ ”

 

 

[SDQDI]

I would like examples of where believers generally throughout the world currently, are behaving ethically and well. Nev

I would like to think that I behave ethically and well and would like to be classed as a Christian, but it isn't real newsworthy to discuss people behaving 'normally'

I am a bit dissapointed with how every thread seems to be descending into a battle of words between believers and atheists (broad grouping discriptions but you (not nev in particular I mean whoever is reading this) get the point.) and I think we all should have a deep look at ourselves. We aren't here because we have the same beliefs or the same political opinions we are here because we enjoy flying so surely we can all agree to disagree and get on with discussing flying.

 

But for what it is worth I will take the time to try and put up my thoughts on the matter. Yes yes, I am a bit of a hypocrite!

 

I try and follow the teachings of Jesus as well as I can, no doubt I fall short in a lot of ways but it is what I want to do. I look at the Old Testament in a similar way to a history book, there is a lot there that I don't understand and it is my opinion that the teachings of Jesus supersede the old 'law'. I don't believe that having a big church building and priests in fancy dress is right as IMO it goes directly against all that Jesus taught. Without taking up too many gigabytes I reckon Matthew chapters 5, 6 and 7 cover it all pretty well.

 

As for the differences between creation being a spontaneous or natural thing compared to being the work of God.................. Well truthfully if we were all to try and look at it 'logically' and without our deep rooted biases then we would have to all say that each idea is as hard to prove as the other. So where does that leave us all? Well I reckon we will never all see eye to eye on this so the best thing we could do (again IMO) is treat each other with a bit of decency, agree to disagree and live with some commonly agreed on ethics so we can all sleep at night. At the end of the day (or the end of our lives or the end of the world or the end of whatever!) we will get proof one way or the other, for me I will either see God and face my judgement or alternatively if none of that is true I will rot away to oblivion like everyone else.

 

Creation isn't the only disagreement now is it? Climate change is another so I'll put up my thoughts on that too seeing as I am already a little hypocrite why not make myself a big one:whistling:. I don't read enough or know enough to prove or disprove the argument from both sides in regards to 'man made climate change'. I do believe that what happens is all under Gods control but that is not helpful to the 'argument'. I don't like the idea of using up all our fossil fuels (ok I do have two big v8s but that is only because I can't afford one of those tesla cars:yes:) but maybe some of my bias towards mining is because I am also a farmer so it is hard to look at it without my biases coming through. I do think that doing things in an environmentally friendly way is a good thing, after all if we can get renewable energies to work for us why wouldn't we lean that way? I do think we have to be wary of people who are to gain from this on both sides, the renewable sector and the oil companies, as it seems to me that both sides like to twist the truth to favour their side (surprise surprise). So I guess to summarise, I would probably lean towards being a denier but I think that the more we do to look after the environment the better so I don't have a big problem with reducing emissions as long as it is done in a sensible sustainable way.

 

I DON'T believe that I have the right to force anyone to believe in what I believe in or to think how I think. I am not one who likes to try and shove my beliefs on others, I do believe in trying to live as an example though and like to be open if asked about what I believe but more often than not I am the shy one who doesn't speak out too often (unless I get cranky but then I speak out too much and not in a way that is appropriate!)

 

Three cheers for anyone who actually read through all of that without skipping down to here:thumb up:

 

Anyway:off topic:. And not just because I want to have the last word lol

 

I have enough trouble swallowing a fly, that was one determined bird!

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

This is such a lovely example of thread drift, but no worries, I'm the OP and I couldn't give a rats ... but really, it was about the wing structure, not whether God or survival of the fittest evolution produced the best wings or less-than perfect wings. It was actually about whether anyone knew what had happened to the fella's experiment with building wings the insect way because he had demonstrated that it was a way to build wings much lighter and less strong than they needed to be when doing it the conventional way i.e. by having wings that could 'spill' air they didn't need to have a 6G or more capability because they could never see that kind of loading.

 

Anyway ... now it's my time to weigh into the believer or non-believer discussion, so I'll tell the tale of my old mate Bazza who I miss dearly, he passed away at this time of year two years ago.

 

Bazza was Queensland's first ultralight CFI and he was a very confirmed atheist and had a lot of trouble understanding people who wanted to go around believing all sorts of 'nonsense' about 'superior' beings and all that. At one stage he'd become so frustrated by it that he had decided it was near impossible to teach anyone to fly if they held sway with these strange ideas of religion and similar.

 

He used to say "what hope have they got of learning to fly if they are grown adults and still going around believing in things like Father Christmas, the Tooth fairy, God and the Easter Bunny?". It made me laugh anyway.

 

 

[Oscar]

HITC: I don't know who your mate Bazza was, but if my memory serves me correctly, George Markey was the first to hold an 'Instructor's' rating for the AUF.

 

Any mention of a god (ANY god) around George would have bought on a minor religious experience: a clear vision of Hell. I never flew with George, but just driving with him tended to make even a confirmed atheist hope that perhaps gods exist, and driving him around would provoke one to break the 6th Commandment. I am quite, quite sure that any student who exclaimed 'Oh, god help me now" in ANY situation, would have been taken around and repeatedly placed in the identical situation until they understood it was only THEIR actions that would save them.

 

And - though I could engage in a fight with George over whether it was a Good Morning or otherwise - I reckon George had it right on that score.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

HITC: I don't know who your mate Bazza was, but if my memory serves me correctly, George Markey was the first to hold an 'Instructor's' rating for the AUF. ......

Yes I think you're right, GM was the AUF's founding President in 1983 and I think he did award himself an Instructor rating - organised training had to be shown to be starting somewhere ...

 

Bazza was Barry Hughes, a bit of a legend up in the Sunny State and he trained a heap of people to fly in single seaters. When two seaters became available he was advised to request a CFI rating and it was given so he became first CFI in Queensland (Qld, not Australia), not long after that I think Bill Morris did the same up at Giru, it was the first step in getting legal schools here.

 

Following that Bill Dinsmore became the first (I think) operations manager and came up here in about 1986 to run a week's course for those of us who had flying schools, and about 4-5 more of us became CFIs.

 

 

[Oscar]

When Paul Middleton managed to grasp the reigns of RAA, he refused to recognise George's Instructor rating. George was the most contrarian bastard in the world, but his contribution to the advancement of Recreational flying in Australia will, in the benefit of hindsight, be exponentially greater than Middo achieved.

 

Bill Dinsmore held, I believe, AUF Pilot Certificate (??) #1. He's still around - indeed, when George died, Bill helped Dafydd Llewellyn transfer the operation of the ARMCOM Blanik Restoration company to Dafydd. I am not sure exactly what Dafydd's involvement in the original AUF was, but he may have been the first Technical Manager? He was the first President of the Qld. Aircraft Manufacturers Association ( if I have that title correct).

 

 

[diesel]

Interesting wings, ladybird. Shell opens,canard.then trifold high aspect mainplane. Clever. Chas.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Gnarly, there was a big scientific experiment reported recently. About 1000 kids of different faiths were tested for ethics.

 

Things like their propensity to share and their propensity to resist or encourage harsh punishments of other kids for various minor things.

 

One group stood out as having better morals than the rest... yep, you guessed it, those who identified their families as atheist.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Of course. In Atheism there is no moral law or right and wrong, everything is relative and up to individual choice. For example it is impossible for you to prove that someone like Pol Pot was immoral or even wrong - he just did what seemed good to him and his opinion is just as valid as other atheists like you.

 

 

[facthunter]

So... Your opinion on morality is more valid than any atheist opinion? You have obviously made that judgement already, I would think from the BS you come out with. Nev

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I don't think you understood nature of the investigation I referred to Gnarly.

 

An example of the tests done was whether a kid with ample food would share with a kid who had too little. That's a non-specific test of morality in my opinion. I think the likes of Pol Pot, and several church dignitaries I can think of, would fail this or similar tests of morality. You don't need belief in spirits to have a robust morality based on reason.

 

 

[djpacro]

I am not sure exactly what Dafydd's involvement in the original AUF was, but he may have been the first Technical Manager?

I'm not sure either, John Baker was an early one.

[kaz3g]

..... birds have extremely short range and are constantly re fueling...

Tell that to the Short-tailed Shearwaters that fly 10,000 kms from the Bering Sea to southern Victoria each year.

 

Kaz

 

 

[DrZoos]

Without a fuel stop?

 

At 4000 calories per hour i doubt they have much range ...