joining downwind early / late

[johnm]

........ sometimes you hear the term joining early (or late) downwind runway 99 - to give an indication where you are on that leg

 

isn't this ambiguous ?

 

should it not be joining long (or short) downwind ?

 

 

[facthunter]

I would have thought so for consistency. Short final is common usage, or tracking for close base.(have NO ambiguity) Extended down wind, Mid field , Tighten the circuit.. Over the top now etc Nev

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I usually use downwind or long downwind or mid downwind...dont think I have ever heard anyone say early or late

 

 

[cscotthendry]

........ sometimes you hear the term joining early (or late) downwind runway 99 - to give an indication where you are on that legisn't this ambiguous ?

 

should it not be joining long (or short) downwind ?

Agree, but aren't the terms long and short also vague? Where exctly does "long" downwind start? Is it defined somewhere? I must admit to using the term on occasion, but have I used it correctly?

 

 

[DrZoos]

we have a busy airport and most seem to say early / late / mid.... which i think is better...because say a long downwind may imply to some that your past the end of normal downwind...or longer than normal...

 

where as late downwind implies your anywhere past mid downwind and they should look in that area......

 

I have never heard anyone say long down wind...

 

 

[facthunter]

Scott..Well you have given them a CLUE where you are, and that's the name of the game. if you want to be more precise you might say something like "I mile south of field joining down wind for rwy 18. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

I lot probably won't know which direction south, north, east, west is. I know this because every time I've asked some traffic near an aerodrome "XYZ, what direction are you from the aerodrome?", I've either got "silence" or the wrong direction advised. Perhaps I've just been unlucky, but I reckon it's not taught. Nev

 

 

[Guernsey]

Joining down wind, Joining mid down wind, joining late down wind and nothing in between.????

 

Alan.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Guernsey ... Round here we tend to specify which part of downwind we are joining when re entering the circuit rather than just joining downwind... even if meaning a normal downwind location... simply because we have so much traffic and many are English as second language and (just english) it just helps them out a lot... and stops the radio being clogged with the inevitable question about where on downwind are you joining... its one word, makes it crystal clear and stops the dribble that follows if you dont say it...

 

 

[crashley]

Aren't the terms early and late an indication of time whereas long short and mid indicate a position

 

at Yltv the terms short mid or long and also low or high are commonly used never heard early or late used locally

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Late downwind? Isn't that base?

 

PS: I think the correct term is 'extended downwind' (ie: the part of downwind extended from where crosswind would normally be). Now I've confused you haven't I?

 

 

[cooperplace]

Late downwind says that you're downwind and about to turn base, IMHO. When I'm in the circuit and someone says they're late downwind, every time they are about to turn base.

 

 

[Geoff13]

Was on late downwind the other day when someone who should have known better decided to join the circuit on base. To say I was unhappy about that would be an understatement.

 

 

[SDQDI]

IMO arguing the difference between late/early and short/long is probably not real important. I think they both convey what they are used for. But for arguments sake I prefer the late/early. I have had people join downwind so early that I was inside them while flying my crosswind leg after a touch and go in the j3 (not a real early crosswind) and would have appreciated an addition of a short or early in their call. It is almost like some people who call early/short are doing a straight in approach to downwind rather than the forty five degree join, bad airmanship?

 

Also another improper thing that I sometimes do if there is some unspotted traffic is call joining a 'wide downwind' and then fly a wide downwind (ok my normal downwind is probably to close but I like to have a good look at the runway flying downwind!) until I have them visually or vice versa.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Late downwind? Isn't that base? PS: I think the correct term is 'extended downwind' (ie: the part of downwind extended from where crosswind would normally be). Now I've confused you haven't I?

No extended is longer than normal.... So when some goon ruins the circuit or your being polite and flying a longer downwind than normal... That is extended downwind

 

 

[facthunter]

The most effective way of increasing separation between you and the plane in front of you, is to extend your circuit downwind.. Nev

 

 

[djpacro]

And that's why circuits at MB get so big.

 

 

[Pearo]

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/files/net351/f/_assets/main/download/caaps/ops/166-1.pdf

 

This should be the only way.

 

 

[kaz3g]

I confess sometimes I am unable to find another aircraft in the circuit.

 

Invariably, this is because they are flying a mega circuit more suited to a Jumbo than a modestly performing GA or RA type, while I remain within easy gliding distance of the airfield.

 

A C172 has a glide ratio of about 9:1 and a Warrior just a little more. A 2 mile circuit at 1000' will put you on the ground long before you get back. A 1 mile circuit will see you down to about 300' in nil wind with possibly two turns needed to line up the runway.

 

I know some of the RA aircraft perform a bit better (Technam P92 is 11:1 for example) but I think a tight circuit is a safer circuit provided the pilot flies it properly.

 

Kaz

 

 

[kaz3g]

Old Auster drivers will enjoy this article and I hope others will as well. It gives some background to the design work that Taylor did on the Cub and the split between he and Piper which led to the production of the Taylorcraft. Taylor, of course, sold his design to the Brits where it became the Auster.

 

http://www.airplanesandrockets.com/airplanes/taylorcraft-february-1968-american-aircraft-modeler.htm

 

The 22:1 glide ratio explains the extreme floatability of the Auster, something which has caused me grief on very hot days.

 

At Narromine on one occasion I floated and floated about 5 ' above the bitumen then saw the vario showing 100 fpm UP with airspeed still slowly bleeding off....I had to power ON and fly it onto the deck to avoid falling out of the sky.

 

Kaz

 

 

[planesmaker]

Long or short downwind, could be a bit confusing, does long mean you have travelled long on downwind or about to travel a long downwind leg?

 

 

[nong]

........ sometimes you hear the term joining early (or late) downwind runway 99 - to give an indication where you are on that legisn't this ambiguous ?

 

should it not be joining long (or short) downwind ?

Er, John. The highest runway number is 36, meaning a runway aligned about 360 degrees magnetic, running South to North.

To answer your question, let us assume class G airspace with a left hand circuit on runway 36.

 

The traditional way to join downwind is to position oneself, tracking 180, at circuit height on an imaginary upwind extension of the downwind leg, further North (upwind) than the crosswind leg flight path for established circuit traffic.. Prior to reaching the approximate point where normal circuit traffic would turn crosswind to downwind, the typical call is "joining downwind 36" or "joining early downwind 36".

 

The other way to join downwind, in this example, is to head toward the circuit whilst maintaining a track of approx. 135 degrees, this being 45 degrees off downwind track. This track is planned so as to intersect the downwind leg between points located perpendicular to both the upwind threshold and the mid length point of the runway. As the aircraft reaches the point of intersection, the pilot makes a 45 degree turn to the right and is thus established on downwind. Prior to reaching the point of intersection, the pilot will broadcast "joining mid-downwind 36".

 

There is no option to join "late downwind".

 

To further clarify: Your question refers to JOINING traffic. My answer covers the way JOINING should be done.

 

REALITY. Us pilots transmit all kinds of crazy and wrong stuff!

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I agree. What people do is not what they should do. You can join downwind, mid down wind or mid field cross wind. Or straight in long final. Anything else just confuses people and sets up a potential conflict. Why would you want to join some other way, other than to create conflicts?

 

 

[SDQDI]

The traditional way to join downwind is to position oneself, tracking 180, at circuit height on an imaginary upwind extension of the downwind leg, further North (upwind) than the crosswind leg flight path for established circuit traffic.. Prior to reaching the approximate point where normal circuit traffic would turn crosswind to downwind, the typical call is "joining downwind 36" or "joining early downwind 36".

The other way to join downwind, in this example, is to head toward the circuit whilst maintaining a track of approx. 135 degrees, this being 45 degrees off downwind track. This track is planned so as to intersect the downwind leg between points located perpendicular to both the upwind threshold and the mid length point of the runway. As the aircraft reaches the point of intersection, the pilot makes a 45 degree turn to the right and is thus established on downwind. Prior to reaching the point of intersection, the pilot will broadcast "joining mid-downwind 36".

 

There is no option to join "late downwind".

 

To further clarify: Your question refers to JOINING traffic. My answer covers the way JOINING should be done.

 

REALITY. Us pilots transmit all kinds of crazy and wrong stuff!

I haven't been flying long enough to know the traditional methods but I do know when I was taught it was made clear if joining downwind that the 45degrees method was the most preferred. Reading through the regs/advisories I think it says that the 45 degree mid downwind join is the preferred method if joining on the active side (ie when not joining crosswind.)

 

I've never really considered the straight in downwind join before and I guess when it has been an option I've always opted to fly the extra half a mile and come up the dead side and join on midfield crosswind.

 

I was always taught the less words used on the radio the better but the addition of an early or mid can help immensely with where to look IMO

 

 

[johnm]

'Er, John. The highest runway number is 36, meaning a runway aligned about 360 degrees magnetic, running South to North.

 

To answer your question, let us assume class G airspace with a left hand circuit on runway 36.'

 

I always wondered why the compass only went up to 36 Nong