joining downwind early / late

[K-man]

I think it is not just black and white. The regs state clearly that you must make whatever calls are necessary to ensure safety so as long as a call gives an accurate description of your position and is within the vocabulary of aviation, it's fair game. There are several mandatory calls but common sense dictates when you might add to those.

 

If I were joining downwind from greater than normal distance I would call 'joining long downwind'. At the other end, if more separation was required I would be 'extending downwind'. Several times I've been on final when an aircraft has begun to enter the strip in front of me. On those occasions I have called 'xxx is late final' to warn them to stay where they are. At Lilydale we have parachuting operations so there are no midfield crosswind joins so 'joining crosswind' can be pretty vague. If there is traffic I would normally add 'north (or south) of the strip' to clarify.

 

Now have the option of joining base and the 'turning final' call is no longer mandatory. If that call is not clear and there is downwind traffic there is potential for disaster. Couple this with the fact that many of us are sharing the skies with foreign students with limited English language skills, we need to be very clear when we broadcast our position and intentions.

 

 

[facthunter]

Be clear, slow and concise. If you waffle on at great length it's too confusing. Stick to standard phraseology as much as possible.. Nev

 

 

[Captaincoop]

Interesting. Joining a circuit in Australia is via crosswind, downwind, base or final leg (conditions permitting) An inbound call should be made as "joining overhead" which is standard if circuit direction is unknown or there are many aircraft on the circuit. In some countries the call is "descending non-traffic side for rwy xx" which is equivilant to joining crosswind from overhead in Australia.

 

There is no such thing as JOINING early downwind for example. However it is, and has always been common practice to give a position report (if required) in the circuit of (for example) early/mid/ late downwind. As well as wide downwind,high downwind, wide left/right base or long final. These are all standard calls in aviation in many countries and if in a control zone these are terms ATC understand. Terms such as "long downwind" are non conventional and are not standard calls.

 

 

[nong]

Interesting. Joining a circuit in Australia is via crosswind, downwind, base or final leg (conditions permitting) An inbound call should be made as "joining overhead" which is standard if circuit direction is unknown or there are many aircraft on the circuit. In some countries the call is "descending non-traffic side for rwy xx" which is equivilant to joining crosswind from overhead in Australia.There is no such thing as JOINING early downwind for example. However it is, and has always been common practice to give a position report (if required) in the circuit of (for example) early/mid/ late downwind. As well as wide downwind,high downwind, wide left/right base or long final. These are all standard calls in aviation in many countries and if in a control zone these are terms ATC understand. Terms such as "long downwind" are non conventional and are not standard calls.

What constitutes "conventional" evolves over time, as pilots try various word combinations.

 

I reckon the measure of success is that the pilot manages to clearly describe position and intentions.

 

"JOINING (an) early downwind" is currently conventional at Wagga and is often used by Commercial and RPT pilots.

 

 

[nong]

'Er, John. The highest runway number is 36, meaning a runway aligned about 360 degrees magnetic, running South to North.To answer your question, let us assume class G airspace with a left hand circuit on runway 36.'

I always wondered why the compass only went up to 36 Nong

That's strange. Mine goes up to 99. !

 

 

[cscotthendry]

That's strange. Mine goes up to 99. !

Must be a metric compass!

 

 

[Captaincoop]

What constitutes "conventional" evolves over time, as pilots try various word combinations.I reckon the measure of success is that the pilot manages to clearly describe position and intentions.

"JOINING (an) early downwind" is currently conventional at Wagga and is often used by Commercial and RPT pilots.

Yes. I think it's convention is established over time. I'm not sure if many pilots doing it at Wagga means it is correct though. For instance "All stations Wagga xyz joining early downwind rwy xx" may be understood and there is certainly nothing wrong with (plain language being used) but it is not correct terminology. "All stations" was replaced by Wagga Wagga traffic" some years ago to bring us in line with other countries (as was "circuit time")

 

and the regs tell us how and where to join circuits ("early" downwind is not a joining procedure, it is a position report) I have heard many RPT turbo prop and jet pilots (Airforce included) alike make these sorts of calls which is incorrect and unprofessional, so just by them doing it doesn't make it ok.

 

Having said that I have no problem with plain language to make it clear of position, altitude and intentions such as

 

"Wagga Wagga traffic, Velocity 123 IFR Boeing 737 30DME inbound on the 360 radial descending through one zero thousand joining downwind for rwy xx Wagga Wagga.....that is Velocity 123 currently 30 miles to the north descending through ten thousand feet joining downwind rwy xx estimate Wagga on the hour Wagga Wagga traffic"

 

The first part of the of the message is all that is required but good airmanship says the the second is helpful to VFR pilots who don't understand IFR terminology.

 

 

[cooperplace]

changing the subject somewhat, I say eg. "traffic Cessnock" rather than "Cessnock traffic" because the first word in a call is sometimes not heard, and there are often multiple airfields on the one CTAF, so when you hear a call "blah traffic joining early downwind" it can be disconcerting if you happen to be early downwind in the circuit, until you work out that they're at some other airfield.

 

 

[Captaincoop]

That is true which is why when the rules changed it is required you say the station identification at beginning and end of each call. These are all modifications to the correct required terminology and unless in an airline environment with an anal check captain or an anal BFR instructor it probably doesn't matter as long as it's understood.

 

 

[facthunter]

Glad I'm not in either of those environments. Nev

 

 

[Guernsey]

I once transmitted an All Stations call and some guy asked me which station and what platform would I be arriving on.

 

He must have had a hand held and was running late for work.

 

Alan.

 

 

[David Isaac]

The most effective way of increasing separation between you and the plane in front of you, is to extend your circuit downwind.. Nev

Or reduce your speed Nev.

 

 

[facthunter]

It's a very small % in some planes, David. A thruster with 2 in climbs cruises and descends at much the same speed, last time I flew one.. I'm told a Bristol Freighter (frightener) is much the same, with the throttles controlling the volume of the noise. Nev

 

 

[Guernsey]

I flew in a Bristol freighter many years ago so I agree about the noise, four of us on a one hour flight learned to do sign language by the time we landed.

 

Alan.

 

 

[Russ]

Noise............try Auckland to fiji in a sunderland ( 50yrs ago........my ears are still ringing )

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I would kill for a ride in a Sunderland. Earmuffs or not.

 

 

[Russ]

Muffs, sandwiches, flask of tea.......all supplied. It's not until you pull up alongside one in a tender boat, that you realise just how big they are. Did i mention NOISEY as well.......they bleeding ROAR. Cavenous interior aids that.

 

 

[David Isaac]

It's a very small % in some planes, David. A thruster with 2 in climbs cruises and descends at much the same speed, last time I flew one.. I'm told a Bristol Freighter (frightener) is much the same, with the throttles controlling the volume of the noise. Nev

I agree Nev. I was thinking more along GA lines. I was specifically taught look ahead, make a judgement and separate by slowing down. Something most GA aircraft can do with relative safety. Not so of course with some types. Extending the circuit has a tendency to compound the problem for other aircraft behind you in a busy circuit.

 

 

[facthunter]

Yes if a few are behind you then it's getting compounded. Nev

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Hi guys. . . . I was always taught to call downwind as soon as I was established onto that part of the circuit. However, at any UK airfield which has a published standard circuit; it is sometimes difficult to get a word in edgeways on the radio, so the term "G-XXXX - Late Downwind" has been used as long as I've been flying. . . sometimes even then, you can't get a call in until you've extended a long way or naughtily turned base already! ( sometimes neccessary where no-fly zones are close to the circuit ) this is the case at Controlled, Semi - controlled, and many "Negatively controlled" ( ie, don't expect an answer) airfields, where use of standard radio calls are a published requirement.

 

As others have rightly pointed out, if everyone else knows where you are in the circuit, then this can't be anything but good. . . I have no argument about this terminology, It's just something I have become accustomed to. The UK have recently ( well, about seven years ago, ) introduced "Safetycom" 135.475 for any small airfield which has no ground radio station of it's own, and is also the only frequency where it is legal for aircraft to communicate directly with one another. . .encouraged in fact. No actual Licence is issued for this facility to be used.

 

This was a very good idea, thought up by a large number of aircraft operators to promote safer circuit ops. The actual airfield name is prefixed, ie "Melton Safetycom - Skyranger G-XXXX joining downwind for runway XX - any other traffic ? ? " Not unlike the old Unicom in the USA. . . and the use if 119.1 in lots of odd places around Australia in the seventies. . . .

 

Although, somewhat perversely, it is illegal for another pilot on the ground to use a handheld radio to tell you what the wind is doing, or what the surface pressure altimeter setting might be; on hearing your first contact with the site. . . . NO, the CAA / Ofcom insist that he has to sprint out to his aircraft, energise it and answer your call whilst sitting in the cockpit using his own aircraft callsign. . . . . . typical UK regulations,. . . allow a really useful service, and then slap bloody stupid, unwarranted conditions onto it ! !

 

Still. . . this isn't the season for whinging . . . 'tis the season to be merry . . .Fal La La La Laaaah - - -LaLaLa Laaaaaaaaa . . . .

 

 

[Phil Perry]

'Er, John. The highest runway number is 36, meaning a runway aligned about 360 degrees magnetic, running South to North.To answer your question, let us assume class G airspace with a left hand circuit on runway 36.'

I always wondered why the compass only went up to 36 Nong

Hitler wanted a 400 degree compass. . . . .if he'd won, we'd have a few more numbers to crunch !

 

 

[Phil Perry]

A really Lovely guy named Squadron Leader Lofty Mason,. . . RAAF Cartographer extraordinaire. . ..once gave me a little tip which MAY. . .actually be taught by my mate Merv and other flying instructors working nowadays,. . .( none of my British instructors / mentors mentioned this simple thing ) and this is to quickly work out in your bonce, the reciprocal of any point on the compass and it's unbelievably easy peasy. . . . .

 

Now,. . .firstly, why would you want to know how to calculate this quickly ? ? well, I was taught this whilst doing instrument training for my Aussie PPL. . . .(I'd got a bit of "Hood" time in the UK beforehand, but this never came up. . . ) I won't go into the various reasons that you might want to know this info quickly, . . .you'll find that out if you ever get the IMC rating allowed for RAA aircraft. . . whatever heading you mention,. simply add 200 degrees and then subtract twenty. if the figure you want is too big, . .then subtract 180 and then add 20. . . .it works every time and it's easy mental arithmetic. . . heading 135 what's the recip ? 335 - 20 = 315 . . .easy. . . heading 046 ? + 200 = 246 - 20 = 226 . . .soooo simple. . . . very handy if you want to land un-planned at a strange field where some inconsiderate barstard has obliteratied the runway numbers at the other end,. . .so you look at rwy 13, and add 200 =330 -20 =31 . . . .? easy if you have a VOR fitted so you can just spin the bezel 180 deg and cheat, but this way you'll know straight away, all you blokes with damp bits at the back of the ears. . . .you can then impress your Girlfriends too. . . .even thick pommie students get this quickly . . . . another spare string for your bow. . .

 

Bit like when you're mixing 2 stroke oil with your fuel for older machines. . . . a lot of Rotax engines use a 50:1 mixture,. . . so just multiply be 10,. . . 20 litre jerry can + 200Ml of oil. . . . odd quantities,. . .7 litres fof fuel. . .X 10 = 70 Ml. . . . . . so easy. . . .work out your own formula for 40:1 I can't be ar$ed as it's late and I have an appointment with some hot mince pies and brandy cream followed by some home made Sloe Gin. . . . .

 

HNY

 

Phil

 

 

[driftamark]

No wonder we lost so many 2s running at 100.1 ..I have always made mine at 400 mls to 20 lts . Mark

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I think Phil was too eager to run off for those mince pies.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Oil have you know maths is one of my favourite subjects. . . .! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

 

( The pies were luvly BTW )