Cirrus SR22

[Oscar]

A quick google turns up:What The Frederick Crash Reveals About Cirrus Accident Trends - AVweb Insider Article

and:

 

Cirrus Accident Rates - Safety pages - Safety and Training Programs - Cirrus Owners and Pilots Association

With respect: a decline in fatals, is not necessarily a decline in accidents. It may just mean that Cirrus are training people to pull the big red handle more often. That would be everything to do with an amelioration of RESULTS of the basic faults of the aircraft, rather than an improvement to its inherent faults.

 

 

[Cloud Basher]

Geez Oscar, I said I was nowhere near the reports. I am sure a bit of googlefu will turn it up for you, or go straight to the NTSB website. Self help and all. But you seem to be making a classical mistake. It has nothing to do with the aircraft, the aircraft is sound, inherently safe and extremely crashworthy, the crash rate has been shown with Cirrus it has everything to do with the pilots. Prior to 2011 pilots were not formally trained how and when to use the CAPS. Post 2011 when Cirrus implemented the training there has been a massive reaction in fatal accidents. The same thing happened with the Piper Malibu when it was released and it brought in standard lean of peak operations - something new to the generation then flying them - and pilots were not specifically trained in it, so it resulted in an abnormally high number of engine failures and thus the fatal accident rate went up. Once it was identified and people trained properly the accident rate went down. Nothing wrong with the engine or the airframe.

 

One other factor is Cirrus aircraft are used for "hard IFR" verses a lot of other singles out there, so they face sometimes less than ideal weather more often than others, and the accident rate is still reducing.

 

Sounds like you have it in for Cirrus aircraft. I have to admit, so did I until I actually looked at the latest statistics and then went through the Cirrus Standardised training. Maybe I drank too much Cirrus coolaid on that course, I do still prefer the C210 for sentimental reasons, but if I had a choice between the two, to put my family in it and go places, it would be the Cirrus SR22 every single time (well when I can afford one...).

 

BTW the second link posted by Nobody gives you the data and also an explanation, citing a number of different rates depending on how the pie is sliced, but you can take from it that Cirrus is about 50% less than the GA fleet average rate, so it is, if not the safest, certainly one of the safest.

 

Cheers

 

CB

 

 

[Cloud Basher]

Oscar,

 

What are the basic faults of the aircraft?

 

Cheers

 

CB

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

Sorry Oscar... what inherent faults? I've flown oh, I don't know several hundred hours in the SR22 over two models and I found them a joy to fly, predictable in handling and reliable.. my only gripe would be the fact that they didn't have rudder trim. The accident rates have come down purely because of better training and education. Like CB, I would and have put my family members in them with the utmost confidence. I treat the aircraft with respect and flight plan like it doesn't have the chute... I currently don't have an aeroplane at the moment, but if I purchase another, first preference would be the SR22

 

 

[Happyflyer]

I think the main "fault" with the Cirrus is that it gets unprepared pilots, used to slower aircraft, to where they are before they are ready to be there.

 

 

[Oscar]

Oscar,What are the basic faults of the aircraft?

Cheers

 

CB

CB - there have been a number of discussions on this forum of the goods and bads of relying on BRS for recovery of flight situations which other aircraft routinely recover from using standard techniques.

 

However, if you are happy to buy, fly and feed an expensive aircraft that offers a high degree of safety at the cost of disposing of it in recoverable situations, then good fortune to you. There is nothing I would say is wrong in your decision. Personally, I believe that the flight performance standards requiring specific ability to recover from unusual (but common) flight attitudes using standard techniques are a realistic safety measure.

 

Good to know, however, that by the US statistical basis you use, Jabirus are the safest airframe around.

 

 

[Nobody]

CB - there have been a number of discussions on this forum of the goods and bads of relying on BRS for recovery of flight situations which other aircraft routinely recover from using standard techniques.

Oscar, How do you reconcile your request earlier for authenticated and reliable statistics and with the statement above. You are basing your opinion of the Cirrus on the discussions in this forum.

 

 

[Cloud Basher]

Oscar,

 

I hate to say it but you are showing your ignorance of the use of the BRS in the Cirrus (and any other aircraft for that matter). I suggest having a look at the COPA site as it explains the rationale and thinking behind its use and when to pull it. It has got nothing to do with the " other aircraft routinely recover from using standard techniques". If you think there is a standard recovery technique from a spin (PARE) that works all the time in every aircraft I suggest you never get into a spin and perhaps fly the Cirrus as you are setting yourself up to be a statistic. There is no standardized spin recovery technique. Every aircraft can and usually is different, some of them markedly so.

 

Your thinking is reminiscent of WWI where some generals said "don't give pilots parachutes because they could just bail out rather than fight the enemy and then fight to save the aircraft". Obviously this was untrue and pilots show time and again - even military pilots who have an ejection seat - that they will stay with the aircraft and try and recover it and become a statistic rather than stepping out at the appropriate time. The Cirrus teaches "if there is doubt about your ability to survive then you pull the chute". If you have an engine failure within gliding distance of a suitable airfield you make the decision to carry out a forced landing or use the chute. This is up to you, how you perceive the situation, your currency, your confidence, your skill level etc. is this not a good thing to have another options? As you can see this has zero to do with the aircraft and everything to do with the pilot. Let me give you an example. I am flying in company with my mate is his C182, both of us heading to Tassie. We both have a engine failure at the same time and are going to have to ditch. Which aircraft would you rather be in?

 

Going back and reading your earlier posts you seem hung up that Cirrus did not have to demonstrate the aircraft could recover from a spin due to achieving an equivalent level of safety with the BRS. My answer to that is; so what? If the pilot has only ever been trained in incipient spin recovery it is unlikely he would know what to do anyway. There is zero requirement to train any pilots in spin recovery unless undertaking aerobatic training.

 

If you enter a spin why would a manufacturer need to demonstrate an aeroplane is recoverable from a spin when the pilot is likely to not know what to do anyway! Aerobatic pilots - myself included - love spins but we are few and far between. Even those who have done an upset recovery course, if you don't regularly practice spins, they can very quickly become disorientating and it is entirely possible that the wrong control inputs would be use anyway. Ian sure Dave Pilkington on here can back this up with personal observations.

 

Your bias is fairly typical of people who have never bothered to educate themselves about the Cirrus. It is a completely different beast to what you perceive and with pilots undergoing proper training on when and how to use the BRS, as the stats show, it is one of if not the safest GA aircraft out there.

 

Cheers

 

CB

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

^^^^^ What CB wrote so well, and to just expand on the ELOS certification, the Cirrus wing design makes the aircraft inherently very stable and very hard to get to spin. during certification testing they purely did not complete the number of spin recoveries required in the spin testing, so in their wisdom the FAA accepted the BRS as an ELOS for spin recovery..

 

 

[skeptic36]

Your bias

Bias , here, you can't be serious

This, is what the guy who fixed mums varicous veins, drives to work

 

 

 

[Oscar]

CB, I have no interest in pursuing this conversation.

 

Although I have been signed out and re-checked a number of times on fully-developed ( 3 turns minimum) spins, I do not enjoy aerobatics; my first loop was undertaken within the first 3 hours of my starting flying training and was noted as 'slow over the top' - and I have had no interest in getting better. So, let me say absolutely - yours is quite obviously bigger than mine. I unreservedly accept this.

 

And, in the spirit of stopping this confrontational debate, let me state that the Cirrus SR22 is the most wonderful aircraft ever to grace the skies.

 

 

[Guest extralite]

The chute is a biggy for me. If I want to fly at night all the training in the world won't help if the donk stops. So it opens up night flying. Also almost every xc I cross tiger country and every time I realize if engine stops I'm dead. Lastly new sr22 are 5 seaters.

 

If another manufacturer of ifr ac came with a chute and 5 seats I'd certainly be interested. And I realize the 3 back seats are best suited for smaller people.

 

Btw I think running cost with insurance about 17k per annum? Currently loving my rv but hesitate with a family. Cirrus test flown seemed more docile than it. In fact handling with self righting is far from exciting and probably what I like least about it.

 

 

[damiens]

For what it's worth, after about 100 hours in an SR22, I can't think of a piston single that I would prefer to fly in either IMC or over any large distances. They are simply an awesome machine, and I think, a pleasure to fly. If you want to go digging you will find that the stats show a remarkable reduction in fatalities, to a point where they are in fact way below the GA average. This is apparently due almost entirely to pilot training. The current Cirrus transition training is the best I have seen.

 

I do agree however that the Cirrus developed a reputation because they were so accessible to inexperienced pilots who flew them without an understanding of the requirements of a fast wing and possibly flight planned differently because of the chute. The current training has vigorously addressed both of these issues. There will always be people who ignore the training requirements, sadly some pay a price.

 

What I am really trying to say is "I like em, I think they are good" :-)

 

Ps. You might want to consider the G2 (2006), they are comparatively well priced in the market and have most of the great features of the new ones.

 

 

[Robbo]

Robbo,Just looking back through some old posts and saw this. Did you / have you / are you still looking at an SR22?

Noting Cirrus now have the lowest accident rate of any GA aircraft (through targeted training now) and they are an exceptional cross country machine. Where are you looking at putting it online?

 

Cheers

 

CB

Hi CB,

Sorry for the late reply have been absent from the forum for a few months, no I never ended up going with it as the deal to put it online fell through, I was going to see if Avia were interested in having another one online but never bothered as they have quite a few online including Simon Hackett's.

 

But the moment I can secure somewhere to put it online I will make the purchase without hesitation, the finance is there waiting to be used.