Aircraft without radios

[cscotthendry]

I know this will be contentious with some flyers but I believe this discussion needs to be had.

 

IMHO aircraft without radios are like cars without brake lights or turn signals. They're fine for paddock-bashing, but in traffic they are a menace.

 

I've just returned from the Evans Head fly in where radio-less aircraft caused confusion and dangerous situations in the traffic.

 

I think that aircraft without radios should not be allowed to attend fly ins where there will be significant traffic, but most particularly where high powered aircraft are performing aerial displays near the airfield.

 

This could be done by implementing the equivalent of CTAF® by NOTAM for the fly in.

 

 

[ozbear]

I agree Scott it's nice to know what's going on around you and a lot safer when everybody does.

 

 

[old man emu]

I bet the pilot of the radioless plane had a Smartphone.

 

OME

 

 

[cscotthendry]

I bet the pilot of the radioless plane had a Smartphone.OME

Interesting thought.

There seemed to be a few aircraft without radios at GEFI, or at least if they had radios, they weren't on the correct frequency or weren't working properly.

 

 

[SDQDI]

If done correctly then flying without a radio will be safe. Basically all our circuit procedures are set out the way that they are so that a radio is not necessary, yes it is nice and helpful but not critical.

 

I think it would be a pity to shut out non radio aircraft from a flyin. For sure a flyin is a higher traffic time but if everyone sticks to the basics it will be safe.

 

 

[facthunter]

When you use the term radio equipped you assume the operator knows how to use it and it works. In the days when there were none the tower used lights, and we won't be going back to that so.... there is a vacuum. I would go along with a radio being required at fly ins, (borrowed hand held?) and possibly a radio fail procedure being specified to allow a plane to land in some sort of an unusual situation (emergency). The writing is on the wall with some of these fly ins. Nev

 

 

[kasper]

And even with radio there is the saturation point - a flyin where the number of aircraft in and joining the circuit means that for all practical purposes the radio cannot be used by aircraft either in or joining the circuit because there is not time to make any transmissions and everyone would overtransmit.

 

This happens all the time in the UK at BMAA and the way to deal with it (scary though it sounds) is to move all aircraft onto radio silence and leave a ground based person on radio reading out critical items and general information with all aircraft on a listening watch as they do visual join - they usually have a separate frequency for the 5 mile call to give the ground based person more of an overview but its not critical and this system works for mixing radio and non-radio aircraft into a pattern than has landings spaced at well under 60sec for hours at a time

 

Sounds horrid and scared the beejeezus out of me when I considered it in theory BUT when I actually went and had a try at both the Sandown Isle of Wight flying and at Popham it actually works very well.

 

So IMHO there is no need to ban non-radio aircraft BUT general circuit procedures need to be cleaned up a bit for some pilots (radio and non-radio) and you can all get along very nicely.

 

 

[Nobody]

As Kasper says in busty skies using a radio becomes harder. At the biggest fly-in in the world, Airventure, you don't talk only listen to the ground and it all works very smoothly.

 

 

[jetjr]

Listening to ground control means having a radio too doesnt it?

 

Im with cscotthendry, should all have them.

 

 

[ev17ifly2]

If done correctly then flying without a radio will be safe. Basically all our circuit procedures are set out the way that they are so that a radio is not necessary, yes it is nice and helpful but not critical.I think it would be a pity to shut out non radio aircraft from a flyin. For sure a flyin is a higher traffic time but if everyone sticks to the basics it will be safe.

There in lies the problem - "if done correctly"

 

"Circuit procedures" - we have recreational pilots out there flying 500ft circuits, no radio and those that do have a radio not trained in its use. And then we have the gliding fraternity.

 

And then we have our friendly Cocky who only flys occasionally and uses his radio as if he is on the CB in the tractor talking to the missus back at the homestead.

 

 

[kasper]

Listening to ground control means having a radio too doesnt it?Im with cscotthendry, should all have them.

And at Popham flyin where there are more than 60 movements an hour you can mix in radio aircraft on listen and non-radio coming into the circuit from a nominated and specific entry point separate from radio aircraft on listen. So long as BOTH groups know where the other is coming from they can join on the dead side and mix in for safe flying.

The operate as landing only for arrival hours and for departure all it takes is a long queue of aircraft and 1 person on the ground pointing and waving at the take off entry point.

 

There are very simply operating procedures for mixing very large numbers of aircraft with/without radio and with very different performance.

 

 

[facthunter]

Yes, you could have everyone with radio and so much clutter it wouldn't achieve anything. Long winded or talking too fast. I've been in a circuit with 4 others (No radio) and you can keep an eye out but you are busy, and if more are joining it 's that much more difficult.. Often there are programmed aeros being performed which make the situation more hairy, if you are inbound. I've also flown for 4+ hours to get there and don't know my radio still transmits till someone responds to my call. Wrong frequencies or gain (squelch) turned down, may render the radio ineffective. How many do actual radio checks pre flight? Nev

 

 

[kasper]

There in lies the problem - "if done correctly""Circuit procedures" - we have recreational pilots out there flying 500ft circuits, no radio and those that do have a radio not trained in its use. And then we have the gliding fraternity.

And then we have our friendly Cocky who only flys occasionally and uses his radio as if he is on the CB in the tractor talking to the missus back at the homestead.

So because of inappropriate and inconsistent behaviour by the few the majority need to up-skill and up-fit their aircraft is more equipment ... the sarcastic ba$tard in me asks are you on retainer for CASA? would you also like us all to ADSB in and out?

Standard procedures and some limited additional management controls for large gatherings can address the risks and provide a safe environment.

 

And for your examples:

 

1. if they have a radio and don't know how to use it they are actually making things worse than having no radio

 

2. if they are a cocky using a radio like a CB they are in the same boat as 1.

 

3. 500ft and no radio - welcome to the mixed world. Unless its stated as 1000AGL then down to 500AGL is allowed even if not helpful when mixed in with GA ... and then mix in gyro and gliding and its very mixed

 

Everyone can play together and safe but it requires reasonable standard processes and awareness of others

 

 

[facthunter]

ADSB will not work satisfactorily either if the number of aircraft is high in a small area. (Clutter). A skilled coordinator calling the shots might work ( with someone helping with a set of binoculars). How to make THAT legal? You would need a designated area for wave off (deadside) it the spacing got too close and re enter the line for approach. Brief all pilots to shut up unless critical , and have ability to exit the strip quickly with ground marshalls.. Organisation and a system that ALL understand. Probably a pipe dream. but the status quo isn't safe. Nev

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

... In the days when there were none the tower used lights, and we won't be going back to that ...

Tamworth tower has a pull-down signal light mounted above each controller.

 

 

[facthunter]

It may still be required. If you had a radio fail you should look towards the tower. We are all fully conversant with the lights and their meaning on the ground and in the air I suppose. Nev

 

 

[frank marriott]

You only need a couple who insist on

 

1. Overflying joining DW

 

2. Joining DW

 

3. Joining Base

 

AND 4. Turning final

 

5. Clear of RW

 

regardless of other traffic and the rest may as turn their radios off. If you are subject to a running commentary from a couple then the other 4 or 5 in close are effectively non radio. Try and explain the requirements as listed CAAP 166, from memory, or the AIP and you get the same "I always" or "I was taught" or "more the better" type answer - Stop trying and walk away, you will never change their minds.

 

 

[facthunter]

Wouldn't hurt if the radio requirements were spelled out more clearly with examples given of varying situations. Before pressing MIC button make sure brain is engaged and be brief and clear. Listen for other broadcasts first. If you suspect your transmit button stuck, switch radio off, or no one can use the frequency. Nev

 

 

[ev17ifly2]

So because of inappropriate and inconsistent behaviour by the few the majority need to up-skill and up-fit their aircraft is more equipment ... the sarcastic ba$tard in me asks are you on retainer for CASA? would you also like us all to ADSB in and out?Standard procedures and some limited additional management controls for large gatherings can address the risks and provide a safe environment.

 

And for your examples:

 

1. if they have a radio and don't know how to use it they are actually making things worse than having no radio

 

2. if they are a cocky using a radio like a CB they are in the same boat as 1.

 

3. 500ft and no radio - welcome to the mixed world. Unless its stated as 1000AGL then down to 500AGL is allowed even if not helpful when mixed in with GA ... and then mix in gyro and gliding and its very mixed

 

Everyone can play together and safe but it requires reasonable standard processes and awareness of others

Its not "the majority that need to upskill" It is the sub-cretin minority that need to get their act together !

 

Since man first took to the air we have been seeking and adopting technology to assist us and make flying safer. Why would you NOT fit a radio, makes no sense.

 

 

[terryc]

What frightens me is it appears that the most of you have become so reliant on your radio and place so much faith in it that you have forgotten what is required of you as pilot in command of an raa aircraft

 

 

[facthunter]

You have my attention.... Elaborate. Nev

 

 

[kasper]

Its not "the majority that need to upskill" It is the sub-cretin minority that need to get their act together !Since man first took to the air we have been seeking and adopting technology to assist us and make flying safer. Why would you NOT fit a radio, makes no sense.

Cost and quality of transmission

The fact that transmission quality can be so variable in the type of aircraft and setups that exist and then there is just the fact that a radio system end - to end is then a series of systems that can individually fail in part or whole that needs then to be maintained and trouble shot on a regular basis.

 

don;t get me wrong, my aircraft has radio, MP3 interface with auto mute, intercom and I fly trike with a helmet installed headset - I have all of that and for the most part i am happy flying 'non-radio' if i am just going local ... from my past flying if I am flying into a tower or radio required airfield I operate in line with the processes, flying international add in the transponder and reporting scheds, and if I am doing group flights I am reporting for 1-5 aircraft across borders and into airfields ... even got enough French language to do radio safely into and out of fields in France where radio is required but language is not allowed to be English.

 

I just do not see why adding technology is required when alternate operating procedures are available that do not add cost, complexity and points of failure that then ground you when in fact the aircraft is perfectly safe to fly.

 

 

[storchy neil]

oh shieet no radio lost al contact oh well on the ground we go landed next paddock taxie to gate shut down

 

escort car comes leads me to safe area thank you I said

 

that's ok ol mate good to see got on the ground okay bloody radios stuff up you had green light

 

yeh seen it but to late concentrating on me landing all is well

 

where you may ask AVALON air show neil

 

 

[Yenn]

If high powered aircraft are demonstrating, that would be an airshow. Airshows have very strict guidelines and notams will be issued. We have an airshow at Old station, but I can still fly noradio if I want. Just not when the airshow is on.

 

I have been to a fly in where there was so much traffic, that radio was useless, except that it did give me an insight into the stupidity of the Spitfire that cut inside me on base leg. Funny that I couldn't find out which one of the several pilots it was.

 

Last weekend I was on the correct frequency and intending to take off down wind. Only about a knot or two. Another pilot was going to take off into wind, I could see from his taxi direction. I called him up to advise him of my presence as he wouldn't be able to see me. No answer, so I tried him on 126.7 whidh is not the correct frequency to use. He was on that frequency and we co ordinated our movements safely.

 

That says to me that radio is only as good as the people who use it and making it mandatory is only another way of adding expense to our lifestile.

 

 

[biggles]

If people 'borrow' radios , as some on here suggest , the question regarding licensing and operating proficiency arises . As it is ,many transmissions leave a lot to be desired from both regular operators , and others that I assume are licensed . A person who is an irregular operator may only cause further confusion . They may also be unlicensed . Radio use is currently mandated at both certified and registered airstrips due to the traffic mix/density and ,from my experience , the traffic both in and outbound to these flyins can be even more demanding ..... Bob