The state of the industry

[kasper]

YOUR logbook is the essential reference when all else fails. Nev

And RAAus records are the fallback when something like a house fire happens and you no longer have your logbooks ...

Plus RAAus records would be the first port of call for CASA in a pilot certificate audit ... and the state of the database at the moment would give CASA nightmares in terms of comfort

 

 

[pylon500]

,and the state of the database at the moment would give CASA nightmares in terms of comfort

Somehow I don't think CASA will have any nightmares finding that RAAus records are possibly below par, but I think the Board might be in for some sleepless nights !!!

If an incident occurs, and it turns out the RAAus data doesn't match a member's logbook data, CASA will be looking to discipline some one, which could get messy.

 

 

[poteroo]

and it turns out the RAAus data doesn't match a member's logbook data,

Our GA school had a CASA audit about 4 years ago where they were really nitpicky. They took the schools'daily flight sheets - matched them to the Maintenance release for a particular aircraft - then matched up the student record sheets - then matched the entries in our personal Pilot Log Books - and finally, matched up with our time & duty sheets. It was a particularly nerve wracking audit but all the entries cross matched, and both instructors lived to fight another day!

 

Nothing as searching as this happens in RAAus - but it shows just how CASA can search your records.

 

happy days,

 

 

[facthunter]

What does that achieve? Nev

 

 

[Downunder]

What does that achieve? Nev

If you're filling out papers, you're not flying. And when you're not flying you're safe.!

 

 

[pylon500]

Our GA school had a CASA audit about 4 years ago where they were really nitpicky. They took the schools'daily flight sheets - matched them to the Maintenance release for a particular aircraft - then matched up the student record sheets - then matched the entries in our personal Pilot Log Books - and finally, matched up with our time & duty sheets. It was a particularly nerve wracking audit but all the entries cross matched, and both instructors lived to fight another day!

Looks a bit like some dissatisfied customer may have suggested to CASA that something was amiss in the school?

At least when our CASA defectors came to do an audit, they had first hand knowledge of what problems to look for, and knew they could find different problems in subsequent audits to keep the pressure on.....

 

Fire suit on.

 

 

[Downunder]

I wouldn't think many disagree with you there Arthur....

 

 

[DonRamsay]

. . . if the current system does not even test that total hours this year >= last year or total hours = 0 and you currently hold a certificate its not much of a system in terms of instilling any form of confidence in the underlying data or the robustness of the system going forward

Have you let RAAus know about this situation?

There is a team in place to sort out exactly that sort of issue and they want to hear about all issues.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

And RAAus records are the fallback when something like a house fire happens and you no longer have your logbooks ...

Considering everyone here's view of RAAus's record keeping capabilities wouldn't that be an unsatisfactory fall back position? I keep my logbook in a fire rated safe. I also have full logbook details recorded in an excel spreadsheet and saved to a backup hard disk and the Cloud. Your CFI will have records of any training you have done with him/her.

 

Plus RAAus records would be the first port of call for CASA in a pilot certificate audit ... and the state of the database at the moment would give CASA nightmares in terms of comfort

RAAus should have accurate records. No ifs, buts or maybes. RAAus is working to have records accurate and providing all records available to the respective member so they can check for themselves. However, records will not fix themselves - it requires you to take an interest on what data RAAus is holding and ask for it to be corrected if you think it is inaccurate.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

For more than forty years I have kept my log book in my flight bag. There is no backup copy. At present the RAAust records have no relation to the times I have reported to them each year. And even then, there is no other record of my GA times, which exceed the RAAus times in most years.

 

Seems to me the RAAus should apply some effort to getting the records right. Also, pilots who fly in both systems are misrepresented unless the RAAus records both types of flying, to get an accurate picture of what members are doing.

 

And I should photocopy my log book and leave it in a safe place.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Just wondering - is there a logbook App for devices which automatically saves new entries to the cloud?

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Another thought....I use only one log book. I think any distinction between RA and GA is meaningless, you are flying solo or dual and the aircraft rego tells the reader what set of rules you are flying under. But when RAAus ask for a total each year it is a tedious process going back and adding up 50 or more entries. Frustrating when they don't actually keep a copy of what I tell them.

 

 

[facthunter]

It is difficult going back and adding different types of flying up but a summary at a specific time each year will record your data up till then and facilitate future searches. Nev

 

 

[kasper]

Have you let RAAus know about this situation?There is a team in place to sort out exactly that sort of issue and they want to hear about all issues.

Repeatedly and with silence in response ... or at best 'it will be dealt with in the next issue of XX"

Don, when I post here that I am NOW giving RAA a fail on their digital engagement and the data issues is it NOT an immediate response or knee jerk without cause - its after asking and not getting anything back in response for MONTHS.

 

So basically I am pretty much sick of sending anything in as - from responses - its a waste of my time and effort

 

My last go at this will probably be Ops 7.1 when it is released becasue just from the little bits of it I have seen posted back through here it is likely to be just as much of a drafting mess as Ops 7.0

 

I have basically given up on the Tech manual as I understand it has gone to CASA for approval without consultation and the constitution changes have simply disappeared from the website so I just give up

 

 

[kasper]

Another thought....I use only one log book. I think any distinction between RA and GA is meaningless, you are flying solo or dual and the aircraft rego tells the reader what set of rules you are flying under. But when RAAus ask for a total each year it is a tedious process going back and adding up 50 or more entries. Frustrating when they don't actually keep a copy of what I tell them.

The distinction does make an impact if you are flying other than only 3axis RAA - Weightshift, PPC and combined controls RAA time does not count for GA aeronautical experience so you need to be able to exclude those from total experience for GA purposes in OZ.

I run 1 logbook now but am very careful to manage how I log time in RAA aircraft

 

 

[facthunter]

Giving up isn't really an option if you wish to keep active in the Industry. I share your dismay though. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

You can run out of columns. Re-use some you don't use anymore with new headings. It's messy but I still keep it in one book as I didn't think it necessary to run several at one time. I'm on my third book and haven't continued all the ME stuff. IF I do more I can easily do totals at that point by transferring from the earlier entries. Nev

 

 

[kasper]

Giving up isn't really an option if you wish to keep active in the Industry. I share your dismay though. Nev

Unfortunately or fortunately I am not in the ultralight manufacturing industry here so I do not have to worry about RAA competence as it impacts my livelihood only as it applies to my permission to fly my aircraft.

Over the years I have yet to meet 1 RAA tech manager who actually understood the tech manual cover to cover (including the current manager) and I on almost every interaction with RAA on tech have found them far less effective than a chocolate teapot.

 

I am afraid that from experience the tech office tend to make it up on the fly when faced with anything that is not 100% bog standard vanilla and if/when pressed they tend to turn aggressive and claim I, the member, am being obstructionist and unhelpful. Bit like the request on here in the past week asking foe reference to any authority in documentation that an aircraft condition report has a life of 6mths ... there is no such limit on the life of them (probably should be but the drafted tech manual has none) and I am guessing that this question comes from yet another on the fly interpretation.

 

 

[facthunter]

I've said often, It's all we have and it has to be made to work. An ACR is a subject of much conjecture as too what it actually means and does. Is there anything in aviation that is black and white? It's a long time since it appeared to be. We have less of the required knowledge in the upper echelons, and it shows.. Nev

 

 

[DonRamsay]

For more than forty years I have kept my log book in my flight bag. There is no backup copy.

I value the hard won hours and qualifications noted in my log and consequently I have a "belts and braces" back up system to ensure it is never lost.

 

At present the RAAust records have no relation to the times I have reported to them each year.

I checked my hours on file at RAAus via the members portal and was (surprised and) delighted to find that that they agree exactly with my records. My records are based on my hardcopy, bound logbook and an excel spreadsheet reconciled with my logbook. The spreadsheet makes it easy for me to identify hours on different types and in different periods.

 

. . . Seems to me the RAAus should apply some effort to getting the records right.

I agree and so would CASA and it is a core function of RAAus. Members have an interest in ensuring RAAus records are correct and now have the opportunity to easily check and request fixes to their records. In the end, the ultimate record is your pilot logbook.

 

Also, pilots who fly in both systems are misrepresented unless the RAAus records both types of flying, to get an accurate picture of what members are doing.

Does CASA record your flying hours each year both RAAus and GA?

 

And I should photocopy my log book and leave it in a safe place.

Agreed - a very cheap and easy form of very reliable backup. A safe place is not your own house if that's where you keep your logbook. Better to keep the backup "off site". If you keep the backup in your aircraft then you can keep your logbook at home. As per CASA, you do not have to carry your logbook on a flight you just have to produce it within a reasonable time on request. I carry a photocopy of the last few pages with me that show BFR done and recent hours on type.

"Requirement to hold a log book

 

• A pilot must keep a personal log book [Civil Aviation Regulation (CAR) 5.51]
   
  A log book consists of a number of pages permanently bound together in such a way that pages may not be replaced or removed;
   
   
  
• An electronic record is not acceptable as a log book, however, a computer printout bound together in the form of a log book and maintained up to date is acceptable;
   
   
  

 

 

[*]All manual entries to the log book must be made in permanent ink;

 

[*]This log book is to be produced to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) when requested;

 

[*]Falsification of a log book is a criminal offence;

 

[*]There is no regulatory requirement to carry a personal log book on a flight."

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Repeatedly and with silence in response ... or at best 'it will be dealt with in the next issue of XX" Don, when I post here that I am NOW giving RAA a fail on their digital engagement and the data issues is it NOT an immediate response or knee jerk without cause - its after asking and not getting anything back in response for MONTHS. So basically I am pretty much sick of sending anything in as - from responses - its a waste of my time and effort.

That is a very disappointing and regrettable situation. If you want to email some details to me I will ensure that the issues are attended to.

 

My last go at this will probably be Ops 7.1 when it is released because just from the little bits of it I have seen posted back through here it is likely to be just as much of a drafting mess as Ops 7.0

The V 7.0 was only about 4 years late when it came out and, under the guidance of the new CEO, it was pushed through. V7.1 was intended to pick up any issues found in 7.0 - not a hugely desirable process but one that was inflicted on us due to years of inaction by previous management and by that I mean previous CEOs. There will be versions 7.2 and 7.3 in time and the Ops Manual will not be allowed to get out-of-date as happened previously.

 

I have basically given up on the Tech manual as I understand it has gone to CASA for approval without consultation and the constitution changes have simply disappeared from the website so I just give up

The new Tech Manual is virtually a blank sheet re-write and has been a monumental undertaking. While I came to it very late, I am satisfied that the process has been very robust and has involved a sound level of consultation. While not all 9,000+ pilots/maintainers have been consulted there has been a process that has produced a draft that is now very close to being passed by CASA. Again, there will be follow-up versions of the Tech Manual keeping it up-to-date and in a good state of repair.

 

 

[kasper]

much clipped...The new Tech Manual is virtually a blank sheet re-write and has been a monumental undertaking. While I came to it very late, I am satisfied that the process has been very robust and has involved a sound level of consultation. While not all 9,000+ pilots/maintainers have been consulted there has been a process that has produced a draft that is now very close to being passed by CASA. Again, there will be follow-up versions of the Tech Manual keeping it up-to-date and in a good state of repair.

Well I am surprised to hear that there has been any consultation - no draft was ever posted to the RAA website so any consultation must have been very selective and RAA Tech have only ever said it was with CASA ... other than the bit where I pointed out the complete failure of what little bits they did provide and they held up my regn until they got the draft changed to make me wrong ... and if this is a clean sheet rewrite I would have thought that the board would have released to members at the very least a drafting guideline of what policy was intended to be drafted into the document - I am very nervous about what will eventually be 'delivered' to members ... I wait with trepidation the imposition of another rewritten document that has not been widely distributed for comment.

 

 

[facthunter]

Perhaps pressure of time might be an issue at this juncture. CASA invite comment and suggestions on such matters. I hope the RAAus do the same when time permits. No one could be unaware of the pressure placed on the RAAus in the last few years. Will they do it perfectly the first time? I doubt it but nothing is cast in stone. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

There was some concern raised by some members on here complaining that it was progressing without satisfactory consultation, but unless those members stand up and take control of their organization it's not going to stop.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Kasper,

 

Do you know Board Member Trevor Bange (CFI / L3 at Clifton) Qld? I think you would lose a great deal of your unease with the process if you gave him a ring. I know he is happy to speak frankly on the process and he has been heavily involved in the redevelopment of the Tech Manual. He can set up a Skype call so it will be minimum cost to talk to him.

 

One breakthrough with CASA has been the co-operative process for checking and amending the draft - something that was prescribed by the DAS Skidmore. There is an approach that involves working together to get a top quality Tech Manual approved not working against each other as has often been the approach in the past.