Why practice pays off - How much Crosswind practice do you do?

[Aldo]

I practice cross wind landings to the maximum of my ability anytime I get the chance and today that practice paid off.

 

I arrived home this afternoon in my trusty J230 to find the wind sock was imitating a honeymooners pride and joy of pretty much direct cross wind. The wind was a very blustery/gusty 18/23 kts from about 170, I have the option of 09 or 27 and 5m of width, I chose 27 as I prefer cross winds from the left (not sure why). The 230 is tested to a max of 14 kts (per the POH) but from experience is capable of much more.

 

Gave myself a little pep talk as I joined downwind that if I wasn't stable and touching down by the time I was 300 mts in I would go around and try again (I have 1000 mts to play with and had three (3) hours worth of fuel and two (2) hours of daylight), only use one (1) stage of flap and fly the aeroplane, very happy that I didn't have company policy saying that I had to be stable at 1000 feet and 3 miles or missed approach was the only option (I would be still up there).

 

Long story short I managed to get down on the first attempt without too many issues.

 

My question is how much cross wind practice do you do as one day you are likely to end up in this situation and when you do can you safely negotiate it.

 

Aldo

 

 

[mnewbery]

Trevor Bange suggested it was like a muscle that needed exercising. That means taking the time to fly circuits when the crosswind was within but at the upper limit of your comfort level for the aircraft at hand. At the end, your comfort level will have shifted higher (or lower depending on the scare factor).

 

The idea is to be good and confident (at the same time) with the combination of location, conditions and aircraft. It only makes sense if the conditions are right for training. Some days the risks are just a little too high - gusty and increasing crosswinds are not my favourite. I have given it a rest after only three crosswind landings because the wind was clearly increasing and turning. But three was better than zero or a ground/runway loss of control.

 

Answer: More is better. Lots is almost enough.

 

I remember one dual flight where we could have done crosswind landings but elected to land across the grass strip not because it was super windy but because my landings weren't that great and it was entirely possible to land into the wind at that location and take off over an empty field on the other side.

 

A bit later, well after my solo flight, I was faced with a pretty stiff crosswind so rather than land parallel to the runway I used the lack of obstacles to fly a track 30 degrees across the centreline from right to left. I lined up to fly between the runway gables. I landed right on the centreline and rolled between the gables on to the taxi way which was parallel to the runway. By then I was slow enough to turn back parallel, up the taxi way.

 

If the wind was coming from the other way I might have had a go at landing on the taxi way and rolling on to the runway. Or I might have stayed home. The point being, I thought all this through before I tried it out and there were plenty of days I decided it wasn't worth the risk to practise crosswind landings. Other days (overcast, passing showers) it was pretty much the only flying I was going to get.

 

 

[Pearo]

I landed at Toowoomba in 25 knots of crosswind on my PPL test. It was a bad landing, I was off center and I really thumped it down. It was one of my worst landing since going solo. I thought I had failed the test at that point, in hindsight I should have done a go-around. In fact, I should have opted out of the test that day because I knew what the wind would end up doing given the fact I am a sailor, but the forecast was marginally good so I opted to go for it. Had 3 or 4 failed attempts at the PPL test due to weather so I was mad keen to get it done.

 

Coming into Redcliffe, there was near on 25 knots of crosswind too. As the ATO said to me, you fly out of Redcliffe, get over it. My landing at YRED was much better.

 

15 knots crosswind is not uncommon at Redcliffe, so you get used to it. I am happy with 20 knots, but over that I am uncomfortable. When I flew out of San Carlos in the US we had 30G35 crosswind, I would not do that on my own, its not fun at all, but the instructor there was used to it and for me it was a good (yet very scary) experience. I learned a lot from flying in the US.

 

 

[Aldo]

I landed at Toowoomba in 25 knots of crosswind on my PPL test. It was a bad landing, I was off center and I really thumped it down. It was one of my worst landing since going solo. I thought I had failed the test at that point, in hindsight I should have done a go-around. In fact, I should have opted out of the test that day because I knew what the wind would end up doing given the fact I am a sailor, but the forecast was marginally good so I opted to go for it. Had 3 or 4 failed attempts at the PPL test due to weather so I was mad keen to get it done.Coming into Redcliffe, there was near on 25 knots of crosswind too. As the ATO said to me, you fly out of Redcliffe, get over it. My landing at YRED was much better.

 

15 knots crosswind is not uncommon at Redcliffe, so you get used to it. I am happy with 20 knots, but over that I am uncomfortable. When I flew out of San Carlos in the US we had 30G35 crosswind, I would not do that on my own, its not fun at all, but the instructor there was used to it and for me it was a good (yet very scary) experience. I learned a lot from flying in the US.

Pearl

 

I understand your pain, I also learnt to fly at Redcliffe albeit a long time ago, never a day when there wasn't a crosswind but you learn to deal with it, I also land in Toowoomba every day so also understand the difficulties with that place.

 

Aldo

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Good stuff guys, I have been spoiled by the cross-strip at Gawler, but there are lots of single strips these days. For example Edenhope has a defunct cross-strip and you can only use the Nth-Sth strip. So I at least all need to practice more .

 

 

[SSCBD]

Practice, Practice and more Practice - Remember, When you Run Out of Rudder and or Elevator and or Aileron all your skill and experience is out the window

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

We are pretty lucky at Ycab we have strips that are mostly within 10 to 20 deg of crosswind. But coming back from Inglewood I had a fuel blockage issue in one of my tanks and I had to land at Watts Bridge it was a 90 deg crosswind at about 25 to 30 knots. I was sort of crapping myself but in the end it was a no brainer. Just come over the fence at 60k without flap..keep the into wind wing down and the plane on the centreline and it was very seamless and easy..the wind was constant and not gusting but it gave me a lot more confidence that I thought I had. Since then I must admit crosswinds dont really phase me a lot any more. Taking off at Teewah a week and a bit ago it was probably 15 knots plus direct xwind as we couldnt use the other strip as pigs had dug holes all over it. Had lots of rudder on and wing down but again was pretty easy...confidence in your ability is a good thing...Over confidence is a bad thing though.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Oh and you cant beat lots of practice of course....maybe I need to be doing more circuits at Redcliffe

 

 

[frank marriott]

We are pretty lucky at Ycab we have strips that are mostly within 10 to 20 deg of crosswind. But coming back from Inglewood I had a fuel blockage issue in one of my tanks and I had to land at Watts Bridge it was a 90 deg crosswind at about 25 to 30 knots. I was sort of crapping myself but in the end it was a no brainer. Just come over the fence at 60k without flap..keep the into wind wing down and the plane on the centreline and it was very seamless and easy..the wind was constant and not gusting but it gave me a lot more confidence that I thought I had. Since then I must admit crosswinds dont really phase me a lot any more. Taking off at Teewah a week and a bit ago it was probably 15 knots plus direct xwind as we couldnt use the other strip as pigs had dug holes all over it. Had lots of rudder on and wing down but again was pretty easy...confidence in your ability is a good thing...Over confidence is a bad thing though.

Out of interest what is the "listed max crosswind" component of a Savannah Mark? (Or does it have one in the POH?)

 

 

[turboplanner]

Interesting having the radio and crosswind threads going at the same time.

 

What I have found is that flying out of a capital city airport makes you aware of the huge safety advantages of radio, but because the Tower controllers change runways to keep you into the wind all the time, country pilots will run rings around you for crosswind operations.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Tower controllers change runways to keep you into the wind all the time

Not in my experience. Certainly not a problem as one can request / require a different runway and often asked if it is acceptable but up to 5kts downwind and +15kts Xwind is not unusual for effective traffic flow.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I'm talking about major city airports with multi-directional runways.

 

You can request a crosswind runway, and I've done training on one with around 10 aircraft in the main circuit, but you don't get the crosswind environment that you get at country airstrips where often there is one strip only.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Sounds like Secondary/GAAP & now class D?

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Out of interest what is the "listed max crosswind" component of a Savannah Mark? (Or does it have one in the POH?)

The POH states takeoff and landing is 26 knots

 

Its a big powerful rudder on the Sav

 

 

[Aldo]

Interesting having the radio and crosswind threads going at the same time.What I have found is that flying out of a capital city airport makes you aware of the huge safety advantages of radio, but because the Tower controllers change runways to keep you into the wind all the time, country pilots will run rings around you for crosswind operations.

Turbo

 

Not only that but the black stuff is generally a lot wider and longer

 

Aldo

 

 

[Geoff13]

We are pretty lucky at Ycab we have strips that are mostly within 10 to 20 deg of crosswind. But coming back from Inglewood I had a fuel blockage issue in one of my tanks and I had to land at Watts Bridge it was a 90 deg crosswind at about 25 to 30 knots.

Mark why would you land with a 90deg crosswind at Watts, especially with a possible fuel problem? They have a cross strip at 90deg to the primary. I can understand doing it for practice but not with a suspect fuel issue.

 

Oh and you cant beat lots of practice of course....maybe I need to be doing more circuits at Redcliffe

Yep I have certainly gotten into the habit of going over there for some cross wind practice.

 

 

[Aldo]

Mark why would you land with a 90deg crosswind at Watts, especially with a possible fuel problem? They have a cross strip at 90deg to the primary. I can understand doing it for practice but not with a suspect fuel issue.

 

Yep I have certainly gotten into the habit of going over there for some cross wind practice.

Geoff

 

In his post pigs had damaged the cross strip

 

Aldo

 

 

[Geoff13]

Aldo that was at Teewah not Watts.

 

 

[Aldo]

Aldo that was at Teewah not Watts.

Sorry, misread on my part

 

Aldo

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

..... When you Run Out of Rudder and or Elevator and or Aileron all your skill and experience is out the window ....

Well, at that point you've run out of stage one perhaps, but you've still got engine torque, P factor, gyroscopic precession forces and differential braking available, to add to the above.

 

... My question is how much cross wind practice do you do as one day you are likely to end up in this situation and when you do can you safely negotiate it. ...

Working as a flying instructor was invaluable for getting lots of crosswind practice, particularly because you get to do more than just the crosswind landings, but have to save the situation when the landing has already gone wrong.

 

As far as the question of how much practice should you do, I'd say you do as much as it takes until you enjoy crosswind landings rather than contemplating them with trepidation.

 

 

[Flyingfish]

A strong steady crosswind can be a much more manageable situation than when the crosswind is very turbulent. I am normally comfortable in crosswinds up to about 16 kts (with aircraft max 18 kts), but gave myself a scare landing at Coffs with crosswind 10 - 15 kts and turbulent - felt like I was in a washing machine - and used much more of the runway than normal before I could land under control. At Coffs a southeasterly wind comes off the sea and tumbles over a row of trees, like waves breaking on the runway... at least that's how it felt!

 

 

[Pearo]

A strong steady crosswind can be a much more manageable situation than when the crosswind is very turbulent. I am normally comfortable in crosswinds up to about 16 kts (with aircraft max 18 kts), but gave myself a scare landing at Coffs with crosswind 10 - 15 kts and turbulent - felt like I was in a washing machine - and used much more of the runway than normal before I could land under control. At Coffs a southeasterly wind comes off the sea and tumbles over a row of trees, like waves breaking on the runway... at least that's how it felt!

I am not a fan of those conditions either, in fact I prefer landing over take-off in gusty crosswinds.

 

On the weekend, I was at my personal limits. I pre-warned my wife that if a bullet (strong gust) came through as I was attempting to land, that I would just power up and go around. No point trying to salvage a landing if its going pear shaped. Better off with a bit of speed so you have some control authority.

 

 

[SSCBD]

I my humble opinion.

 

Think about this if you have the benefit of a long runway with gusting crosswinds.

 

Take the pressure of yourself, don't try and land on the piano keys or in the first third of the runway, stabilise the aircraft over the runway center line, dose it really matter if you float down a long runway - if you have a runway length use it that's what its for - no points for landing in the first 10 feet and hand having an "arrival".

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Geoff

 

To be honest I was following Danny in. He went for that strip so I was following concentrating on the flying letting him pick the strip. I was very concerned about the fuel situation as I couldnt see any in the tank except the occasional slosh and it was the shortest approach to get on the ground quickly. I have only ever flown into Watts about 5 times and I think used that cross strip once. My mind was preoccupied flying the plane and making sure I was ready if the engine started coughing as I had someone doing the approach for me so it was a matter of just following him. As it turned out the crosswind was easily handled and not that big of a deal. That sort of fuel issue will never happen again either as I fixed the breather issue literally the next day with the new stainless tubes into the caps. By the time I had realised I had a fuel issue and the time taken trying to resolve it Watts was the closest strip with fuel if I needed any and I was sure I would easily get there as I still had a full reserve but have never flown with fuel levels that low before so was doing more of the aviating rather than the navigating

 

 

[Geoff13]

Fair enough. Amazing how when you are concentrating on the important stuff how the basics take care of themselves. That won't stop me winding Danny up when I see him though lol. Actually got up for a couple of hours today. First time in a few weeks. Now I am away again for another week.