Class D - Metro vs Regional

[Precog]

Anybody have much experience with flying into both a metro class D airport (e.g. Bankstown) and a regional class D airport (e.g. Albury)? Was wondering what are the operational differences between the two?

 

I recently visited Albury ATC tower and was a little surprised by the differences in procedure (im a student pilot). For example, at albury you must explicitly "request clearance" to enter/depart the class D. At bankstown and i think other metro class d airports the requirement is just to establish two-way comms. Also noted that at albury VFR pilots departing into class G were giving a departure report (unlike metro D) when established on outbound track giving altitude and track info.

 

 

[ben87r]

I have flown lots out of both (YPPF,YBAS,YBRM,YSBK) and as you mentioned there are "local" style "rules". I tend to stick to the AIP which does not differentiate between the old GAAP and larger class D. I now always offer a departure report (was never done through training, and was unaware it was required until work) and most times they will accept it but the "metro D" guys usually sound a bit surprised, and with the others sometimes not requesting it when super busy. Not sure if that's what's meant to happen but, if they have you sighted in VMC I suppose it's ok.

 

I haven't flown VFR into a "metro" D since training but the D aerodromes don't require clearance via a reporting point and a radial/bearing and DME/GNSS or miles used instead, if equiped and able.

 

Unsure if that would be OK in town.

 

IFR at both just planned as per the AIP and should be easy enough. Direct once airborne might be easier outside of the metro areas depending on identification.

 

The metro D ground controller always seems to clear outbound via the run up bay (and I always forget to say that it's not required) and at the others clearance via the run up bay must be requested if required. That would just be because of the amount of training AC in town.

 

There's a few more little things but seems to be aerodrome specific rather then between the above.

 

I'm definitely not an ATC guy, they would have more to mention ild imagine, this is what I've picked up on the operational side.

 

 

[kaz3g]

The various VFG's provide detailed information about each of the former GAAP airports plus othe Class D like Albury...have a look at the generic Class D info.

 

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/files/net351/f/_assets/main/pilots/download/melbourne.pdf

 

The Albury tower likes to know what is going on because of the density of traffic coming there in both C and D, and because it's vision is severely limited by the GDR. It's open to any Class D tower to require you to request a clearance and for them to issue instructions re entry and joining. Although there is no strict requirement to use approach points, they are the most sensible places at which to make your entry known to the controller.

 

Kaz

 

 

[NovemberFoxtrot]

Is the different here because you entered the Class D airspace at Albury, rather then just the Class D CTR?

 

 

[facthunter]

I haven't been into Albury for years but I have been involved with the airspace south of it crossing over to Benambra from Wangaratta via Hotham. You need a clearance thru the controlled airspace if above somewhere around 5,000 feet from memory. I like to go as high as possible but generally avoid going into it if not necessary. nev

 

 

[rhysmcc]

Last I checked in Class D the acknowledgment of your request for clearance was simply to answer with your call sign. That is your clearance to enter as requested. i.e.

 

You: "Albury Tower, ABC c172 20 miles west of Albury at 1,500, request clearance inbound."

 

Tower: "ABC, Albury Tower"

 

 

[facthunter]

I would have thought you would need a clearance. Normally such things require a readback. No? Nev

 

 

[NovemberFoxtrot]

would have though you would need a clearance. Normally such things require a readback. No? Nev

No, there's implied clearance to enter class d CTR, by the tower simply acknowledging you.

 

ESTABLISHING TWO-WAY COMMUNICATIONS

 

When an aircraft contacts ATC at a class D aerodrome and provides sufficient information about track, position, level, and intentions, ATC may give a clearance to enter the airspace by simply acknowledging the transmission with the aircraft’s callsign. Alternatively, a clearance may be denied, or afforded by an alternate route or level as instructed by ATC. Such instructions may include ‘join crosswind’, ‘overfly’, or ‘report at [position]’. The acknowledgment authorises the aircraft to enter the class D airspace following the stated track and level, or any alternative instruction given by ATC. Pilots are then required to maintain two-way communications with ATC and comply with any subsequent ATC instructions.

 

 

 

This shortened procedure does not eliminate the availability of a ‘traditional’ airways clearance. However, it provides an abbreviated clearance option for use when both pilot and ATC understand the proposed course of action.

 

 

[alf jessup]

I haven't been into Albury for years but I have been involved with the airspace south of it crossing over to Benambra from Wangaratta via Hotham. You need a clearance thru the controlled airspace if above somewhere around 5,000 feet from memory. I like to go as high as possible but generally avoid going into it if not necessary. nev

You still had 3500 to go Nev, 8500 is the outer step you pass through going direct

 

Alf

 

 

[facthunter]

That rings a bell. Just below at 8400.. Nev

 

 

[alf jessup]

Well to be politically correct 7500 flying hemispherical s from Wang to Ben & 8400 on return as you stated lol

 

Alf

 

 

[rhysmcc]

Why not at 8500 if that's the lower level.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

I wouldn't question the author on any technical issue as he is thoroughly experienced on type. He has also published it for all the world to see including all the aviation experts and his peers.From an energy point of view the glide distance is probably easily verified. Normally you don't get to do an all engine out glide, but no doubt it could be done in a simulator of the aeroplane specific type

The B727 has to be partly spooled up below 3,000 feet as flight idle on the P&W JT 8 D gives a slow throttle response, and it's a safety requirement to be above it at that stage of the approach.

 

Normally one doesn't drop the gear way out unless a change of runway is offered and you use it to lose height if you are set up for a runway with more track miles to threshold, you will be too high for a straight in on 06. Nev

 

No, there's implied clearance to enter class d CTR, by the tower simply acknowledging you.

ESTABLISHING TWO-WAY COMMUNICATIONS

 

When an aircraft contacts ATC at a class D aerodrome and provides sufficient information about track, position, level, and intentions, ATC may give a clearance to enter the airspace by simply acknowledging the transmission with the aircraft’s callsign. Alternatively, a clearance may be denied, or afforded by an alternate route or level as instructed by ATC. Such instructions may include ‘join crosswind’, ‘overfly’, or ‘report at [position]’. The acknowledgment authorises the aircraft to enter the class D airspace following the stated track and level, or any alternative instruction given by ATC. Pilots are then required to maintain two-way communications with ATC and comply with any subsequent ATC instructions.

 

 

 

This shortened procedure does not eliminate the availability of a ‘traditional’ airways clearance. However, it provides an abbreviated clearance option for use when both pilot and ATC understand the proposed course of action.

NF, where are you quoting this shortened procedure from? AIP 12.3 still includes instructions as part of establishing comm's.

 

 

[djpacro]

[Roundsounds]

AIP ENR 12.3.2 Note 2 says if the controller responds with your call sign (and perhaps instructions) you have established two way comm's and therefore may enter the class D airspace.

 

It seems the old GAAP airport towers have modified the Class D procedures to match GAAP by simply acknowledging your "inbound" call and consider that a clearance. However the original Class D controllers continue to provide a traditional clearance before taxy or when inbound.

 

It'd be easier for newbies (and instructors training students) to standardise class D procedures. Guys I trained at Albury would find Camden's procedures odd and vice versa.

 

 

 

[facthunter]

Why not at 8500 if that's the lower level.

I was always taught to give a clearance on the LL figure as aircraft in the CTA may be at that level. Nev

 

 

[NovemberFoxtrot]

NF, where are you quoting this shortened procedure from? AIP 12.3 still includes instructions as part of establishing comm's.

Casa actually publish a quick guide for this.

http://ontrack.casa.gov.au/class-d-info

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Casa actually publish a quick guide for this.

NF, thanks for that. It's a sign of the times CASA having to publish a document to explain what's in the reg's! Why people don't just read the AIP etc is beyond me. By the omission of the [instructions] note in AIP ENR 12.3 the intent may be lost and pilots only reading the guide will embarrass themselves at places like Albury, Coffs etc.

 

I was always taught to give a clearance on the LL figure as aircraft in the CTA may be at that level. Nev

Nev, it surprises me that you'd do that? There are vertical tolerances factored into airspace design. You're best to fly the hemispherical levels rather than fly random vertical offsets.

 

 

[NovemberFoxtrot]

NF, thanks for that. It's a sign of the times CASA having to publish a document to explain what's in the reg's! Why people don't just read the AIP etc is beyond me. By the omission of the [instructions] note in AIP ENR 12.3 the intent may be lost and pilots only reading the guide will embarrass themselves at places like Albury, Coffs etc.

Its true, I trained at Archer, and then found SunnyCoast and Coffs a bit different when I went there. Nothing insurmountable, but definitely quirky. Helped to listen to LiveATC prior so i had an idea what i was in for.

 

 

[facthunter]

Roundsounds....It's only for a very short time and gliding distance is more important on that route to me. You are climbing or descending for most of it. It's not a normal situation where you cruise for the major distance.. Nev

 

 

[frank marriott]

I was always taught to give a clearance on the LL figure as aircraft in the CTA may be at that level. Nev

I have always been of the opinion that to remain in CTA you had to plan 1000ft above the LL and you could fly OCTA up to the LL giving a 1000ft buffer between OCTA & CTA traffic. One of the current controllers might like to correct or confirm this opinion.

I currently fly regularly OCTA at 2500' with a 2500' LL remaining OCTA (listening watch on approach freq and 1200 code on transponder - occasionally asked to confirm remaining OCTA when still on climb)

 

 

[Yenn]

It looks as if different towers require different procedures, but it is all basicly the same. To get into Rocky, just give call sign, location, height and say Details. They will come back with your call sign and say go ahead. you have established coms and are going to get your clearance.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

I was always taught to give a clearance on the LL figure as aircraft in the CTA may be at that level. Nev

 

I have always been of the opinion that to remain in CTA you had to plan 1000ft above the LL and you could fly OCTA up to the LL giving a 1000ft buffer between OCTA & CTA traffic. One of the current controllers might like to correct or confirm this opinion.I currently fly regularly OCTA at 2500' with a 2500' LL remaining OCTA (listening watch on approach freq and 1200 code on transponder - occasionally asked to confirm remaining OCTA when still on climb)

If 8500 is the LL, then that is the last level outside controlled airspace. ATC would issue aircraft at 9000ft giving a 500ft buffer to OCTA.

 

 

[Geoff13]

If 8500 is the LL, then that is the last level outside controlled airspace. ATC would issue aircraft at 9000ft giving a 500ft buffer to OCTA.

That is how I was taught and how I read it.

Class C LL Bribie southern tip to Moreton island is 3500. Every weekend you will hear aircraft transiting Moreton to Bribie and vice versa at 3500'

 

 

[nickduncs84]

Done a lot of flights in and out of most of the metro C and D as well as Albury in the last year. This thread is making something that is rather simple sound quite complex. Sure there are some differences but if you read ERSA you should pick up the important ones. Fly to that little diamond looking thing on the chart, call the tower and do as you're told. The first time I go in somewhere I let them know I'm unfamiliar which probably helps as well. Sometimes I reckon the more regulations you read, the more complicated it seems, especially with CASA. I've yet to be to a place where the common sense approach I mentioned hasn't worked.