JABIRU 2016 UPDATE

[gandalph]

Link to the document?

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2015/ar-2015-082/

 

 

[Oscar]

Here is and extract from ASTM F23389-06 outlining the durability testing requirements. In a 2000 hour overhaul time you need to do 166 hours at full power (5 minutes in every hour plus 183 hours at cruise power. so a total test is at least 349 hours. Not sure where the 200 hour comes from.

Which equates to 43.6 8-hour days of running. 6300 litres of fuel at 18/litres/hour ( conservative for a J3300 engine at those power settings.). About 7 years of operation for a private owner at average hours. A controlled environment that can be measured and reconciled back to 'standard' conditions from the measured results. Tear-downs and measurements.

 

Put very, very simply: you cannot test an engine to either ASTM or FAR 33 / EASA standards, by building a frame, bolting the engine on and trundling that out the back of the shed and firing it up and providing the operators with a sandwich pack and a couple of cans of Coke.

 

The only aero-engine manufactured in Australia that has been certificated is the Jabiru 2200C ( to JAR 22H - same as for the Rotax 912A.) That was managed by Alan Kerr as a contractor to Jabiru.

 

 

[Oscar]

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2015/ar-2015-082/

Lots to digest there - but it's NOT the ' Reliability of Sport Aircraft Engines' research project that was supposed to be completed in October 2015. That is the one that is supposed to reveal the truth about the reliability of engines used in recreational and sport aircraft.

 

One wonders why it is now four months overdue - in an investigation started in July 2013. Perhaps the reporting is not considered reliable? ( just a thought here, and perhaps they should have just asked Turbs in the first place and then would not have needed any further research....)

 

 

[jetjr]

There should be a final report for this one shortly

 

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2013/ar-2013-107.aspx

 

Maybe CASA and TP putting finishing touches to it now.

 

 

[Oscar]

There should be a final report for this one shortlyhttps://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2013/ar-2013-107.aspx

Maybe CASA and TP putting finishing touches to it now.

Well, I do hope ATSB recognises the seminal work that Turbs has done....

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

"Avoid prolonged ground running at elevated RPM as the engine can easily be overheated... the air ducts are designed for in-flight cooling" says the Jabiru manual. Then it says.. "Ground running at higher power settings for more than a few minutes requires the use of special, oversized air ducts and oil cooler" .

 

So I was warned, but I overheated it when trying out a dynamic prop balancer. This goof is after 14 years of trouble-free operation from that engine.

 

The new cylinder-head and set of exhaust valves is going in this weekend, along with digital CHT on each cylinder.

 

Yes I may have got away with it with water-cooled heads like a Rotax, but those engines cost twice as much and I never would have bought one.

 

The higher parts-count of the Rotax gives other problems, and I have no trouble believing that the Jabiru engine is more reliable if operated competently, or at least in accordance with the manual. But any air-cooled engine is easier to overheat, and this is the unavoidable trade-off for good points like a low parts-count.

 

It would take impressive ignorance to compare such dissimilar engines, you would need to have a military or legal background to have this much ignorance.

 

There are air-cooled engines around, the Volkswagen aero-conversions are examples, if you must make a comparison then do it with those.

 

 

[Oscar]

Bruce: THIS - is what it takes to provide adequate airflow for cooling on the ground for prolonged running of a J2200 engine ( my engine in the piccy..) for certification test purposes It's fed by an around 6hp 3-phase electric motor running a very large centrifugal fan ( about 800 mm diameter), adding pressure to a 4-square foot approximately inlet tract for forced air from the prop. blast. Each head and barrel cooling duct, has an independently-controllable butterfly to keep individual pots balanced. The damn cooling set-up when running almost drowns out the engine...

 

The centre outlet, as yet unplumbed, is for airflow specifically to the oil cooler. The two outer ducts as yet unplumbed are for the Jab 3300 engine. You can't see anything of the enormous supercharger than supplies air at ICAO-standard pressure for sea-level to the inlet tract, to keep mixture constant, run by another electric motor.

 

Now, think about the inlets to your engine in a standard Jab. cowl...

 

 

 

 

[facthunter]

If that's pushing much more air over your motor than available in normal service the results would not have much validity. Some installations would not put enough air over the motor. I can't understand why inter cylinder baffles aren't used. It has been noticed that faster aircraft with Jab motors have less trouble, than slower ones. That's logical and Jabiru have stressed not over pitching you propeller, so you have two factors there. Nev

 

 

[gandalph]

It needs a bigger prop or it will over rev .

 

 

[jetjr]

Older models and Camit do use baffles berween , on the sides and delectors on top of cylinders

 

Jab reckon none of this is necessary

 

 

[Guest asmol]

Bruce: THIS - is what it takes to provide adequate airflow for cooling on the ground for prolonged running of a J2200 engine ( my engine in the piccy..) for certification test purposes It's fed by an around 6hp 3-phase electric motor running a very large centrifugal fan ( about 800 mm diameter), adding pressure to a 4-square foot approximately inlet tract for forced air from the prop. blast. Each head and barrel cooling duct, has an independently-controllable butterfly to keep individual pots balanced. The damn cooling set-up when running almost drowns out the engine...The centre outlet, as yet unplumbed, is for airflow specifically to the oil cooler. The two outer ducts as yet unplumbed are for the Jab 3300 engine. You can't see anything of the enormous supercharger than supplies air at ICAO-standard pressure for sea-level to the inlet tract, to keep mixture constant, run by another electric motor.

 

Now, think about the inlets to your engine in a standard Jab. cowl...

 

[ATTACH=full]41761[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=full]41762[/ATTACH]

Oscar, even with all this setup I dont think you will get the shipping container to fly !

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Nev, I take your point but the CHT will give the story. If your cooling from those blowers equals what is coming in with 80 knots, then the CHT will be the same.

 

Those blowers remind me of the old Volkswagens. A fair bit of the engine power went to the blower which kept it cool. I liked the noise it made.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Beetles were known as chaff cutters coz that's what they sounded like. I had three and loved them.

 

 

[jetjr]

Under the test protocol, you have to adjust and swap cylinders running temps a lot by the looks, pretty accurately too, your up within 10 deg of max continuous temp.

 

This would be the only way to do it

 

 

[kgwilson]

Older models and Camit do use baffles berween , on the sides and delectors on top of cylindersJab reckon none of this is necessary

I have the old style ram air ducts on a new engine due to the lower profile of my cowl. Jubiru US recommend deflectors on the top above each cylinder , Jabiru Aus don't & Jabirus engine manual shows gull wing deflectors on the top but they don't supply them. I could not work out why they put them on top as every other air cooled engine I looked at (Lycoming Continental) had them on the bottom which seems more logical to deflect air around the bottom of the cylinders as it comes in from the top. The ram air duct from Jabiru had the rear deflector on it when received. It just had to be cut around the head fins. I didn't fit the extra deflectors or gull wings as I have a huge cooling air exhaust & lip plus a large 7 row Positech oil cooler with its own cool air supply via a NACA duct. Runs cool all the time.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Yes kg, I agree about the gull wings and put them on the bottom. There is a Limbach web site with good stuff on cooling and it shows them on the bottom.

 

And I don't see how deflectors can help. They may have helped with early ducts which had a big gap at the bottom rear. I reckon you would make a hot-spot behind the deflector.

 

 

[jetjr]

top cylinder baffles were there to move air towards rear in 3300. At some stage Jabiru released SB requiring removal. I did and had problems so tried fitting them underneath, it certainly stabilised temps, less movement but no cooler.

 

Played with cowl exit and oil cooler intake, got more air flowing

 

Fitted deflectors in top of ducts and this worked very well. With 6 CHT sensors can get pretty even. If your watching just one the spread will scare you.

 

Jabiru USA have a pdf on how to make them and trim so they work.

 

They are about evening out CHT not cooling more.

 

Camit fit much larger under cylinder baffles, and top duct deflectors. After trimming and adjustment it too works pretty well. Their ducts also come with side plates blocking outside area between heads.

 

I see both are for sale from their website now.

 

They are also big on sorting CHT measurement errors and supply shielded probes and run cold junction back inside cockpit

 

Of course LSA owners cant do any of this and must follow Jabiru instructions to the letter.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Something for you to digest, rip apart, enjoy or hate!

 

Engine failures and malfunctions in light aeroplanes 2009 - 2014

 

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2013/ar-2013-107_research

 

Type: Research and Analysis Report

 

Investigation number: AR-2013-107

 

Publication date: 9 March 2016

 

 

[jetjr]

Theres 2 threads already going on this

 

 

[Narrabeenrick]

You're the one telling the emotional hypothetical Oscar; I'm simply going by the law, and until the issues listed in the instrument, are removed from the "reasonably foreseeable risk" category, CASA's actions seem prudent.

Turbo'

 

Do you think it was "Prudent"!! of CASA to limit to operations of Jabiru powered aircraft citing 46 incidents that included a flat tyre, a crook radio, carburetor flooding, shorted cigarette lighter socket, incompetent maintenance? {all taken from an article in sportpilot } I also read somewhere they also counted people running out of fuel.

 

Do you think by imposing these restriction and endangering a small Australian company is fair? If you feel it's fair then, what about use there same criteria incidents for Rotax and Dmotor and see how they rate ?

 

Cheers

 

Rick

 

 

[Oscar]

Ignoring Turbs will give you more headspace to chew through the real issues. Works for me...

 

 

[Camel]

Very well said Rick ! It is exactly how you said it and it gets worse, the LSA catergory was created to allow a more economical way of a standard to build planes and engines so hence the ASTM , Casa then go and compare the engines built under ASTM standards and compare to FAA certified standards and use this as a reason to back up the other bullsxxx.

 

Certification does not make anything any better as the auto industry changes all the time to improve their products and the auto industry is 50 years ahead of aviation !

 

 

[jetjr]

Doesnt the fact results are comparable at all indicate uselessness of certification?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Turbo'Do you think it was "Prudent"!! of CASA to limit to operations of Jabiru powered aircraft citing 46 incidents that included a flat tyre, a crook radio, carburetor flooding, shorted cigarette lighter socket, incompetent maintenance? {all taken from an article in sportpilot } I also read somewhere they also counted people running out of fuel.

Do you think by imposing these restriction and endangering a small Australian company is fair? If you feel it's fair then, what about use there same criteria incidents for Rotax and Dmotor and see how they rate ?

 

Cheers

 

Rick

This is what the OP wrote, but this thread has unfortunately been hijacked by people with their own agendas.

 

"Just received from Jabiru.

 

Hello Jabiru Fleet,

 

Welcome back to 2016 and our first update for the coming year.

 

 

 

Sales are continuing to go well in our overseas markets. Jabiru North America currently have six J230’s on order. Two will depart at the end of this week, two in March and two more in May. We have a J170-D due off the production line within the next few weeks and it will be leaving us in March for its new Australian home. It is great to see these new Jab’s flying the coop.

 

 

 

Our roller cam engines are receiving a very good press. Total hours are now exceeding 30,000. Several of these engines have been back for their top end overhaul at 1000 hours in good condition and returned to service. Close to 100 people have now been through the Engine Maintenance Workshop held here at Jabiru. This training program, along with the on-going engineering research and development here at Jabiru is greatly improving the overall professionalism of the fleet. We will all keep up the good work and blitz those Rotax’s J

 

 

 

The CASA limitations are unfortunately still in place. Information we have received tells us that the on-going airworthiness department of CASA has no further issues with Jabiru. We are unsure of the reasons why the limitations are still in place. It would appear that the matter of lifting these restrictions may be held up by the legal department. We would of course like the limitations to be lifted as soon as possible. We continue to provide correspondence to CASA, Mr Warren Truss MP and our local members of parliament. The more correspondence they receive on the impact the limitations continue to have on owners and operators will assist. Correspondence can be sent to CASA, your local member, Mr Warren Truss MP at[email protected] and the Industry Complaints Commissioner CASA at [email protected]

 

 

 

The team here at Jabiru looks forward to the coming year with positivity and as always we sign off with “Happy Landings”

 

 

 

 

 

JABIRU AIRCRAFT PTY LTD

 

PO Box 5792

 

 

 

Bundaberg West Qld 4670

 

 

 

Ph: 07 41551778

 

 

 

Fax: 07 41552669

 

 

 

Email: [email protected]

 

 

www.jabiru.net.au

 

www.facebook.com/JabiruAircraft"

 

You can obtain the source, and status, of the "46" figures with one call to CASA. I'd suggest a lot of people who rushed off half cocked with emails, faxes, letters and phone calls to politicians might be better off it they'd done the same.

 

What CASA has said is that they are using an FAA benchmark. [as a baseline for the reasonably forseeable risk I mentioned]

 

If the final figures exceeded that limit by just one engine, then they were obligated to act to prevent legal repercussions. To act is prudent in that case.

 

If the figures they acted on included your "a flat tyre, a crook radio, carburetor flooding, shorted cigarette lighter socket" etc. and the benchmark was not violated, then I imagine the people affected will be going to see CASA.

 

No I don't think endangering a small Australian company is fair, but nor was it fair to decimate Ford, International Harvester, Chrysler and Leyland. The problem is that NOT action has massive financial issues.

 

Yes the same criteria should be used and, based on what CASA said, IS being used for Rotax, D Motor, and any other aero engine.

 

 

[JEM]

Sorry Turbs, As OP I did not post the last 4 paras from your post 674 "you can obtain........any other aero engine". See Post No 1 this thread. You or someone else must have added this. Don't attribute this to me. I own a Jabiru and fly it regularly.