Jabiru engines

[Steve L]

This will surely open another can of worms. Hopefully Jabiru will gain out of this.

 

 

Steve

 

 

[mnewbery]

. ...otherwise I'll be asking my colleagues to join me to have an enquiry to have a look at how you've dealt with this.

Like that's never been tried before Senator Barry O'Sullivan...

 

http://proaviation.com.au/2013/04/06/to-hell-with-the-rules/

 

http://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/329724-senate-inquiry-into-casa-16.html

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Like that's never been tried before Senator Barry O'Sullivan...

The Senator is trying to save an Australian business, WTF would you prefer him to do?

 

 

[Steve L]

Thats what I thought Bex, too many companies are or have left out shores and thats by their own choice.

 

 

[Litespeed]

The Bill and Barry show ............ at least they seem to actually have a idea of the issues and care.

 

I look forward to the next chapter in the ongoing saga

 

 

[mnewbery]

Bex your point is well taken. My post was about CASA having a history of ignoring ministerial directions and getting away with it. This is actually a more extreme version of disobedience than being threatened with a senate enquiry, then being the subject of one AND EVEN THEN ignoring the directions to implement the recommendations from the enquiry.

 

I have no suggestions for Senator O'Sullivan other than good luck. If I come up with something I'll go see him myself because I drive past his office in Canberra most days.

 

This isn't some soulless machine, this is the behaviour of individual people inside CASA. Who they are, I have no idea.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Now we have just have to get Barnaby up to speed too and things are going to start happening. I don't care what colour your politics is, if that performance by your elected representative, representing your issues to your regulator didn't impress you, you are fairly hard to please.

 

 

[jetjr]

Barnaby flies small charter a lot and I believe those guys word him up.

 

 

[Robmus]

This will surely open another can of worms. Hopefully Jabiru will gain out of this.

I really believe that is one of the best parliamentary discussions I've heard for a long time. Hopefully will go a long way to helping Jabiru?

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Spoke to Barnaby's office this morning; he has had quite a few complaints about CASA and wants an email to pass on.

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

If you've noticed, in GA CASA has off loaded any responsibility to the overseas manufacturers and the aircraft operators for keeping up with ADs, maintenance schedules etc. If they deal with Australian manufacturers they must take responsibility themselves for AD's issued. You can draw your own conclusions about what game is being played here.

 

Neither Skidmore nor Aleck looked impressive IMO.

 

 

[Dave English]

I was concerned about how little either politician knew about the issue. They didn't even know that the Jab engines are made in Bundaberg. I was also concerned that it was publicly stated by a senator that Jabiru are about to fold. It will be bad for everybody if Jabiru goes under, probably quickly followed by Camit. No parts or ongoing maintenance for a fifth of the RAA fleet, followed by a lack of competitiveness for the Eurogliders.

 

 

[2tonne]

Dave, I think politicians often know the answer to the questions they are asking. They just want the other side to have to say it out loud. When in an adversarial situation, I always bear in mind the saying "never ask a question you don't already know the answer to".

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

Yep, they got Skidmore to say that CASA took out the "ran out of fuel incidents". I have no idea whether this is so but Skidmore better hope it is.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Yep, they got Skidmore to say that CASA took out the "ran out of fuel incidents". I have no idea whether this is so but Skidmore better hope it is.

Who will ever know if he doesn't have to cough up the data used to inform their decision to restrict Jab operations.

 

 

[mnewbery]

This website suggests the raw data came from RA-Aus

 

http://www.orangeflighttraining.com.au/index.php/news.

 

More info on the source of the data here:

 

http://proaviation.com.au/2014/11/23/get-on-with-it/

 

 

[frank marriott]

I was concerned about how little either politician knew about the issue.

Mate, you may want to research the professional qualifications of this particular senator in relation to his career in aviation incident investigation - and take on board the comments of 2tonne. May change your mind, maybe not, just a suggestion.

 

 

[coljones]

Mate, you may want to research the professional qualifications of this particular senator in relation to his career in aviation incident investigation - and take on board the comments of 2tonne. May change your mind, maybe not, just a suggestion.

"

Qualifications and occupation before entering Federal Parliament

 

• Police officer 1976-91.
   
   
  
• Grazier from 1979.
   
   
  
• Managing Director, Jilbridge Pty Ltd and NewLands Group Holdings Pty Ltd 1991-2013."
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

[Flyer]

Well done Senators O'sullivan and Heffernan ... Skidmore appears to be on the skids a little.

 

 

[mnewbery]

http://barryosullivan.com.au/about/

 

Upon retiring from the police force, Barry established an Insurance Loss Adjusting practice which specialised in the preparation of briefs of evidence in civil litigation cases associated with world-wide catastrophic aviation accidents (principally international flights). He has worked on crash investigations all over the world.

[jetjr]

Theres another thread going on this

 

We have seen the data under FOI and no the fuel and other issues were not removed

 

Failures goes from 48 claimed to 12 i believe

 

This was outlined to CASA before the action taken and ignored

 

 

[turboplanner]

Theres another thread going on thisWe have seen the data under FOI and no the fuel and other issues were not removed

Failures goes from 48 claimed to 12 i believe

 

This was outlined to CASA before the action taken and ignored

Refer to the "Jabiru 2016" thread where this was discussed in detail, including the shortcomings of the FoI request where a spreadsheet was supplied, based only on the request relating to Lee Ungermann and what he "used". He quite well could have used it to argue to the Management group that the RAA supplied data included BS like flat tyres.

Under questioning by the Senators, when extracts from that particular spreadsheet were mentioned, Mark Skidmore said CASA had all that data, but would have removed the irrelevent items (such as fuel exhaustion, flat tyres).

 

In relation to an ATSB which you also posted, the two CASA people confirmed that their decision was based on engines of similar power and capacity, so the two stroke Rotaxes should also have been taken out.

 

On the other thread someone zeroed in on the "would have" from Mark Skidmore, but he is unlikely to have tried anything cute in a Senate Hearing where there can be severe repercussions.

 

In terms of numbers, Mark Skidmore committed himself on the decision being made on a percentage increase of occurrences over other engines of similar power and capacity.

 

The FoI request, which I notice is still being waved on the other thread did not, because of its narrow demand establish:

 

(a) Who made the decision

 

(b) What the decision was specifically based on (after all CASA's internal deliberations of the material presented to them, which included irrelevant material such as flat tyres, two stroke engines etc).

 

So on these threads, while there is endless comment on documents supplied to CASA, most of that may turn out to be irrelevant.

 

On the other hand, if the accusations are correct, and if CASA received irrelevant inclusions from RAA and ATSB, and if CASA included those figures to build a result of "two to three per cent more occurrences than engines of similar power and capacity, they may have created a situation where affected parties can recover their costs.

 

There was an agreement at the meeting for an audience between the Senators and CASA representatives, and in that grilling it could be expected that any real numbers would come out, along with the legal reasons for the decision.

 

We know that meeting is going to take place, but what we don't know is where it is going to go once they get behind close doors. It's like a Pandora's Box, if the discussion gets on to the subject of RAA's position in administering this, or of the current overall incident/accident/fatality frequency as one person has suggested, and the Government is shown to be exposed to liability, then things could spray in any direction.

 

 

[Oscar]

Yep, they got Skidmore to say that CASA took out the "ran out of fuel incidents". I have no idea whether this is so but Skidmore better hope it is.

Nope, they did not take the Runcorn incident out, and they included duplicate incidents (in adjoining rows!) amongst other really amateur, verging on the incredible, inclusions that anybody with a skerrick of aviation knowledge would seriously rule out as reliable indicators of genuine engine stoppage.

 

 

[jetjr]

Skidmore would expect his team, remembering he wasnt even das then, would not do something so dopey as not analyse data properly

 

Just shows he trusts those in the team. Perhaps he shouldnt

 

 

[turboplanner]

Skidmore would expect his team, remembering he wasnt even das then, would not do something so dopey as not analyse data properlyJust shows he trusts those in the team. Perhaps he shouldnt

Yes, that's a possibility for a new man to the job who is very competent, but Dr Jonathan Aleck, their chief legal officer was sitting beside him and could have corrected the "would" to "did" to clarify the answer if he'd thought it was significant.

That will quickly be resolved in the meeting between the Senators and CASA.