Spinning and have you done some ?

[Flyer]

I've seen much discussion on this forum about spinning or lack there of.

 

Up until I jumped into a glider I'd never spun an aircraft except with one instructor who right royally F$@ked up and spun a 172RG on me. That was a dick swinging competition that is another story.

 

As part of the gliding curriculum, spins are an essential part of training. You don't go solo until you demonstrate spin recovery.

 

Every year we do a check ride and guess what ... yep, demonstrate spin recovery.

 

What spinning have you done and are you keen to get a feel for spinning ?

 

No, I'm not offering to teach anyone as I'm spin adverse. I stay right away from them normally.

 

I wanted to start a discussion on the topic and see where it went.

 

 

[Robbo]

djpacro is the king on this.

 

Might find something here

 

http://www.recreationalflying.com/forums/aerobatics.82/

 

 

[Ultralights]

are you talking proper fully developed spins? or just the 1 or 1.5 turn incipient spin that everyone seams to think is a full spin?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw75rNaTNT0

 

remember, different aircraft have different spin recovery techniques, so unlike the guy in the chipmonk in coffs harbour, make sure you get proper spin training, from a qualified and skilled instructor (eg, ex RAAF, or aerobatic competition pilot, not someone who says they have experience only in incipient recovery) before attempting any spins by yourself. in an approved aircraft of course..

 

 

[facthunter]

I taught spins in DH82 and DHC-I and did them regularly while I had my Citabria. I'm consistently an advocate for unusual attitude training and anything similar. Even Jet liners can spin and get into situations it takes over 10,000 feet to recover from (IF you know what you are doing). Nev

 

 

[davebutler]

When I learned to fly back in South Africa in 1983 full spin training was part of the syllabus.

 

We did spins in pa28-140's, C150's, C172's and others.

 

It was removed from the syllabus around 1985 unless done in a certified aerobatic aircraft, only incipient spins taught now.

 

 

[Yenn]

I did spins in the Chipmunk and others years ago. Good fun but I am way out of practice now. I practice slow flight and stall regularly, also good training.

 

 

[dutchroll]

RAAF training taught incipient spin recovery on the CT4 (fully developed spins in that aircraft being frowned upon). Advanced training in the Macchi saw us do fully developed spins, starting at 20,000ft if I recall correctly. If you left it in the spin for a few turns it would really wind up.

 

Part-time civilian flying saw me doing spinning in the DHC-1 Chipmunk, in which recovery technique is critical.

 

Moving onto civilian life I was introduced to inverted spinning on the Pitts S-2. Owning my own Pitts experimental variant now, I spin that from time to time.

 

When practicing spinning I get as high as practically possible. If I stuff it up, I at least then get some time to fix it.

 

 

[Pearo]

I have not done fully developed spins yet. Took me long enough to manage steep turns and incipient stall/spin (whatever you camp). But I got past that, and I know I can get past fully developed spins with enough practice. So I am going to do it at some point.

 

The problem I have now is what to do next? I have the PPL now. Today I bought the IREX books and plan to get an IR next. Maybe I might mix that up with some tail-wheel and unusual attitude training.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

I'd suggest tailwheel and aerobatics would be way more useful if you are flying for sport. Not to become an aerobatic comp pilot, but it just moves your personal limits out a bit further and makes you a safer more competent pilot.

 

 

[facthunter]

Tailwheel per se has nothing much to do with spinning and recovery from unusual attitudes aerobatics etc, But it is part of relating to planes that are pretty basic and demanding of an appreciation of what's going on around you. When you own a tailwheel plane you sometimes wonder why you exposed yourself to a situation where you could look silly without many appreciating what caused the grief, because they just don't know what they don't know. If you are not comfortable don't go there. It's not compulsory. Nev

 

 

[Pearo]

I say tailwheel, because most of the aerobatic planes are tailwheel, so its just an added bonus to get some tailwheel experience. I dont plan on getting endorsed on aerobatics or tailwheel, but you never know. I get more kicks out of learning that the actual flying part (not to say I dont enjoy flying though!)

 

 

[djpacro]

I dont plan on getting endorsed on aerobatics or tailwheel, but you never know.

WARNING - it is addictive.

[Roundsounds]

WARNING - it is addictive.

Agree! As a PPL holder, aero's and tailwheel experience will make you a safer pilot. In my opinion a PPL holder not regularly flying IFR is dangerous. If $ aren't too much of a hurdle, do tailwheel, aero's, formation then IFR.

 

 

[djpacro]

are you talking proper fully developed spins? or just the 1 or 1.5 turn incipient spin that everyone seams to think is a full spin?

Yes, I still see some teaching incipient spins only - it bites some-one down the track when the poor technique is found not to be effective in a fully developed spin. I still see quite a few who do not teach spin recovery iaw the flight manual for the type and too many pilots who have not read the flight manual for the types that they spin.

 

When I learned to fly back in South Africa in 1983 full spin training was part of the syllabus.We did spins in pa28-140's, C150's, C172's and others.

Somewhat similar to the very old rules in Australia. Spin training was not part of the PPL syllabus although I was required to do spins in each subsequent aerobatic type that I got an endorsement on.

Separate endorsements for the Fuji 160 and 180 as the latter had a C/S prop - consequently did many spins with Roy Goon who insisted that every one be six turns before initiating recovery. The Beagle Pup required aft ballast for spinning as I recall. My Chipmunk and Tiger flying came after those individual endorsements were abolished. The flat spin, fully developed spin mode in the CT-4.

 

 

The every which way spins of the Pitts from upright steep accelerated to inverted flat (full throttle, full aileron then move the stick full back). Interesting that PB's Wolf Pitts does not recover using the Beggs-Mueller technique.

 

Quick guesstimate: 8000 spins and still spinning.

 

A plug for an excellent book on the subject: http://www.amazon.com.au/Stalls-Spins-Safety-Revised-Edition-ebook/dp/B008P1HLJ4/ref=pd_sim_351_1/375-1724477-6355605?ie=UTF8&refRID=0SZT71MJNJ0QWSKP0MV1

 

 

[facthunter]

In the early 60's spin training was done fully. It was the sequence just before first solo. When all the new planes were not suitable for spinning the syllabus was changed. (funny that). to wing drop, incipient spin recovery

 

Number of turns done in a spin might vary and also certification for spinning recovery stipulated a number of turns required. I don't remember the exact details, but the Chipmunk might take about 3 turns to settle into one even using out of spin aileron for entry to lock it in more quickly. The weight of the rear seat passenger/ instructor changes Cof G a lot. There was a bit of concern about the Chipmunk's spin characteristics as it didn't always recover as per the book, and it could develop a flat spin after awhile.. I'm a little reluctant to use full forward stick for several reasons. Tailplane could be stalled and it shields the rudder, and the plane has been known to get into an inverted spin with no warning.. This all means have more height than most need, and mentally prepare yourself to use alternative techniques, applied methodically IF required. It's got a sink rate of around 6,000 fpm in the spin which is usually fatal.

 

Yes most aerobatic planes are tailwheel. Lighter and stronger and more versatile. I'm not convinced of the NEED to do formation flying in the big scheme of things. You are trusting others to be well trained and disciplined and if they stuff it up you are in it as well . Just my view. If you had a highly trained group at your field maybe it would work OK, but not any room for mistakes. Nev

 

 

[Oscar]

My brother was out in the training area off Morrabbin, in a Chippie, practising solo spins..... got one well-developed ( around 5 turns, I think) and noticed some aircraft around him! Three RAAF Dakotas, serenely flying in loose formation through the training area, no radio calls... Brother went between them (pure luck), ended spin, returned to Morrabbin for a change of underwear and some new batteries for his Pacemaker...

 

Glider training: a minimum of three turns (observed by an Instructor) in a fully-developed spin before we got our X-country rating. Always a bit of fun for those of us on the ground, watching to see who could pull off the recovery in style vs those who kicked it out with extreme prejudice.

 

 

[facthunter]

Both spin and stalling are dangerous. A planned stall entry and a planned spin are not what you will encounter in reality. You will unintentionally get into either situation most times when it can kill you. We need to be able to recover quickly before either situation develops to the point you will run out of altitude. Does that sound logical? That is the skill we need to develop. Nev

 

 

[diesel]

One memorable flight at an airshow years ago. Loop off spin recovery. I had never seen it done and just flew it in my head. In a blanik that day. Went well and even got the attitudes and speed right. Next few flights are testing hybrid diesel Jodel at MAUW and aft c of g. Chas

 

 

[Soleair]

I did my PPL training in the 80's in the ubiquitous Cessna 150/152. My instructor was a frustrated aerobatic pilot, and since the only aerobatic manoeuvre for which the 152 was cleared was spinning, he took great delight in teaching recovery from fully developed spins.

 

One element of the UK PPL at that time was 'instrument only recovery from unusual attitude' (maybe still is ?) This entailed wearing a hat with a ludicrously long peak, curved down at the sides, such that you couldn't see out of the window - just the instrument panel.

 

The instructor/examiner then put the aeroplane into an unusual attitude, & you had to identify it & take appropriate corrective action.

 

Naturally my instructor chose to put me in a fully developed spin, which was quite exciting. Maybe a bit like a simulator must be, only with more permanent consequences for mistakes. . .

 

Bruce

 

 

[facthunter]

The 150/152 will tend to fall out of a spin by itself. You usually have to go to considerable effort to hold it in. The risk is entering a spiral and gaining speed quickly, and you can overstress the plane. A Cessna at Port MacQuarie bent the fin and rudder over in a botched recovery. Landed safely, fortunately.

 

Spins and spirals should be dealt with together at least initially re technique and always identify spin or spiral prior to recovery initiation. This is particularly important in "under the hood" situations (or IF conditions). Nev

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

..... such that you couldn't see out of the window - just the instrument panel.The instructor/examiner then put the aeroplane into an unusual attitude, & you had to identify it & take appropriate corrective action.

 

Naturally my instructor chose to put me in a fully developed spin, .......

I learned spin recovery when I learned gliding. I hated having to do spins at first but got used to them at least to the extent that they didn't bother me. Later I taught them in ultralight schools before the practice was banned.

 

I didn't have any problem with a recovery until the day I was put through a similar 'blind entry' exercise to the one Soleair describes above. For all previous spins either I had made the spin entry or the instructor did it with me watching, so I knew which direction we were spinning and which rudder to use for the recovery.

 

Later, when I was put into a spin with my eyes shut and couldn't see the entry, I didn't know which direction the spin was. I became really disoriented and confused and took precious time finding out. In fact the only way I did find out was by trying each rudder pedal briefly and observing which one slowed the rotation, and which one sped it up, and then using the appropriate one for the recovery.

 

I was given the 'blind' entry several times and on no occasion could I work out which way we were spinning.

 

Consequently I had to devise a means of instantly determining which would be the correct rudder pedal for recovery without knowing the entry condition. This might be useful to others, which is why I mention it here -

 

I don't worry about which way the plane is spinning, instead I consider which way the ground is going and press the rudder which 'chases' the ground. If you're spinning to the right, the ground appears to be racing away to the left so I press left pedal to 'chase' the ground. During the spin it seems perfectly logical because I am subconsciously wanting to 'catch up' with the ground to stop it racing away from me. Using this mindset I can always press the correct pedal instantly without even thinking about it. And it works whether you're spinning upright or inverted.

 

It probably sounds a bit odd when reading it sitting here comfortably on the ground, but if someone has similar difficulty that I had with recognising spin direction in the air, this method might just help them to become a lot more comfortable with spinning in general. Being able to handle a situation builds confidence and confidence in one's ability to recover accurately and promptly helps to take away the fear of the spin.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

One memorable flight at an airshow years ago. Loop off spin recovery. I had never seen it done and just flew it in my head. In a blanik that day. Went well and even got the attitudes and speed right. Next few flights are testing hybrid diesel Jodel at MAUW and aft c of g. Chas

Do those tests involve taking off from your farm strip Chas?

 

 

[diesel]

Of course Lyle. Diesel is great. Regards Chas

 

 

[djpacro]

The Cessna 150 will readily get into a stable, fully developed spin; a 152 needs a more aggressive entry technique but can also get into a stable, fully developed spin. As for recovery, well, the full story is here:

 

http://www.kopingsfk.se/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/10.-Spin-Characteristics.pdf about the 150 through to the R172.

 

 

[kaz3g]

One memorable flight at an airshow years ago. Loop off spin recovery. I had never seen it done and just flew it in my head. In a blanik that day. Went well and even got the attitudes and speed right. Next few flights are testing hybrid diesel Jodel at MAUW and aft c of g. Chas

The dear old lady of the air, the Blanik, was a very forgiving platform but I fear in hindsight I might have put a few cracks in one of them. We all thought they were very strong and capable of accommodating a number of basic aerobatic manoeuvres and mistakes. Turned out they weren't quite that strong, after all. But they would spin nicely and recover according to the book.

 

The Bocian would spin in great style; those extraordinarily long and narrow wings gave an audible sigh as she entered the spin. The instructor's seat is raised so that you can see over the top of the students head which gives an odd perspective when everything is rotating.

 

The first single seat glider I tried aerobatics in was a Pilatus B4 but I didn't like it much...always seemed heavy. I got out of gliding in about 1985 and did most of a basic aero course in 8KCAB VH-BIK before giving flying away for a bit then to educate the kids...Silly me!

 

Kaz