Figuring out who to call for clearance

[aplund]

I've done a couple of navs. But I'm still all at sea as to how the control of airspace actually works. It seems like there is so many special cases and it is hard to think if generic rules to cover most cases.

 

CTAF calls I think I'm fine with. But things like requesting clearance for class c and class d airspace confused me greatly. At Archerfield we just call the tower from class g and all is good. But for gold coast you don't. In fact you don't call approach even, its Brisbane centre, on a different frequency from that at Archerfield. But you don't tell them everything, you give most of the information to approach. Gah!

 

I'm desperately trying to find out where all these rules are written down. ERSA has some information about frequencies, but where is the proper procedure for doing the example I have given above. I'm told the VFRG has it, but when I look up clearances in that, it doesn't mention anything about who you contact and what your meant to say to each person.

 

Is there a resource out there that helps me find the information?

 

 

[Camel]

The visual flight guide.

 

https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-page/visual-flight-guide?WCMS%3ASTANDARD%3A%3Apc=PC_90008

 

 

[aplund]

The visual flight guide.https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-page/visual-flight-guide?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_90008

I have the VFRG. Which section tells who in particular to call and what to say to them?

 

 

[Peter008]

I can send you a copy of Townsville & Mackay if it helps. Class C & D. Send me your email by PM.

 

 

[Graham Pukallus]

Check out the "On Track" section of the casa. gov.au site, for procedures and hot spots around some main aerodromes Australia wide, may be of some help.

 

 

 

[Pearo]

Class D, call the tower.

 

Class C, call Centre for a code.

 

Mil, call clearance delivery for a code.

 

(note the part about obtaining a code, that is the giveaway)

 

For MIL and Class C, the controller will usually hand you off for clearance, and will tell you what frequency you need to request your clearance on.

 

 

[nickduncs84]

It's really as simple as Pearo says. It can be confusing as to specific frequicies for entering class c sometimes. Usually ersa has the details about which frequencies to use for approach in various places. But don't stress too much, if you call centre and you need to speak to approach for clearance, they will give you the frequency.

 

on departure from class C, remember the extra step of calling delivery before calling ground to taxi. Delivery will give you you're code and airways clearance

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Nope sorry. It's not that simple.

 

Well it is once you have the different sequences for the different airports worked out in your head. But it is very confusing when you travel around.

 

You need to look in the ersa

 

In response to pearos simple scenario, that only applies in some places.

 

When inbound - At some class c you might call centre.

 

But at some like cairns and Townsville you call various people AT the airport involved. Centre is not involved ( although you can elect to call centre early if you want but there is no requirement to nor do many small ga aircraft have anything to do with centre .

 

For example inbound to Cairns you call approach on the local frequency (126.1) who gives you a code and only hands you off to tower when you are essentially in the circuit.

 

Where as at Townsville you call clearance delivery which is a local controller ( military) when you are way out ( before 36 miles if I recall) who gives you a code and hands you off to approach at 36 miles then who hands you off to tower in the circuit. BBN Cen has nothing to do with either situation.

 

 

[DWF]

If you can't figure it out from the docs, you shouldn't be trying to fly in CTA!

 

It's part of the PPL test.

 

Almost everyone stuffs it up occasionally.

 

Remember ... ATCs tell pilots where to go.

 

 

[dutchroll]

I've done a couple of navs. But I'm still all at sea as to how the control of airspace actually works. It seems like there is so many special cases and it is hard to think if generic rules to cover most cases.CTAF calls I think I'm fine with. But things like requesting clearance for class c and class d airspace confused me greatly. At Archerfield we just call the tower from class g and all is good. But for gold coast you don't. In fact you don't call approach even, its Brisbane centre, on a different frequency from that at Archerfield. But you don't tell them everything, you give most of the information to approach. Gah!

 

I'm desperately trying to find out where all these rules are written down. ERSA has some information about frequencies, but where is the proper procedure for doing the example I have given above. I'm told the VFRG has it, but when I look up clearances in that, it doesn't mention anything about who you contact and what your meant to say to each person.

 

Is there a resource out there that helps me find the information?

Aplund, unique ATC clearance information is contained in the ERSA entry for that airport. You need to really thoroughly read the ERSA entry because there's not always a rhyme or reason as to exactly under what subject heading that information will be found. It's easy to miss it (done that myself, more than once). VFR Guides usually try to summarise this information in one place.

Example: Gold Coast

 

"ATS COMMUNICATION FACILITIES" Note 3

 

"Flight details and clearance requests should be advised to Brisbane Centre 119.5 well before the CTR boundary. Pilots submitting details should prefix these requests with the phrase “Flight Details”. Pilots should NOT contact Gold Coast TWR to submit Inbound/Transiting details."

 

but.......

 

"LOCAL TRAFFIC REGULATIONS" Note 7

 

"Aircraft requiring a transit of the GC CTR should plan to track via the VFR route depicted on the VTC as follows: Northbound transit via the highway (inland) and contact Tower 118.7 approaching Cudgen Lake for ATC clearance."

 

So it tells me to call Brisbane Centre 119.5 for clearance. Except if I'm transmitting the CTR, I have to call the tower for the clearance. Why? I have no idea but there will something in the way traffic is coordinated between ATC agencies there which dictates it.

 

As a general rule where you can't find anything to specify what to say, you should:

 

1) Call the controlling agency of the airspace (Centre/Approach/Tower/etc depending which airspace you enter first)

 

2) Tell them who you are

 

3) Tell them where you are (including altitude) - approaching a specific reporting point, or if not, a distance and bearing/quadrant

 

4) Tell them where you're going in a few simple words.

 

5) Advise receipt of ATIS where applicable

 

6) Request the clearance

 

If there is extra info they need (e.g., military towers will want your POB) then they will ask you. If there's a unique frequency to call and you skipped over it in your ERSA study, they'll just tell you to remain outside controlled airspace and "call XYZ for clearance". It happens more than you might think, but store it away for next time.

 

 

[Guest Mark_hwltt]

Your instructor will be able to help and if your only doing your cross country Nav's they shouldn't let you loose till your capable.

 

Or find another school, you are paying for the education .

 

 

[Jaba-who]

DWF has it pinned when he says everyone stuffs up at sometime.

 

If you do, a quick "My apologies" smooths things out every time.

 

The good thing is that ATC are usually pretty good and will guide you as to who to talk to next and on what frequency.

 

Just try to have it all sequenced on a bit of paper so you can roll from one to the next but if it turns to putty have a pen ready to go and write down the info they give.

 

When I hear ATC talking to a bushie who sounds like he is venturing into CTR for the first time in 20 years and they slot them in and talk them through you realize ATC do really help when you are a bit uncertain.

 

I always make a point of saying early in the transmissions that I was "Unfamiliar" if I was new to an area and they immediately give you some leeway. I have long found that if you ask for guidance you get it in bucketloads, if you come in brash and try to sound like you are a big shot they will treat you as if you know it all but if you stuff up from as a self professed big shot then, they can get a bit surly.

 

 

[Spooks]

The good thing is that ATC are usually pretty good and will guide you as to who to talk to next and on what frequency.

.

Or send a couple of fighters to intercept

 

(You'll need 121.5 for that)

 

 

[aplund]

Your instructor will be able to help and if your only doing your cross country Nav's they shouldn't let you loose till your capable.Or find another school, you are paying for the education .

That's what has happened. I'm pretty early on in this, as I've only done two navs and will be doing my third soon. For the basic handling and circuits, I was just told "do this", or "say this" and over the course of a dozen flights, you just get into a routine. This seems to be what is happening for the navs. But I have two concerns with this approach. I don't like learning things without understanding the "whys" behind them and I do want to cover the future situations of knowing what happens when you are dropped into a completely different location. This is a real possibility as my work tends to want to move me round a bit.

 

 

[facthunter]

A general concept.. Don't ever enter controlled airspace without a clearance. Also IF they know in advance you are coming it will be less likely to be delayed. So forewarn them when you can.. Nev

 

 

[Pearo]

Nope sorry. It's not that simple.Well it is once you have the different sequences for the different airports worked out in your head. But it is very confusing when you travel around.

You need to look in the ersa

 

In response to pearos simple scenario, that only applies in some places.

 

When inbound - At some class c you might call centre.

 

But at some like cairns and Townsville you call various people AT the airport involved. Centre is not involved ( although you can elect to call centre early if you want but there is no requirement to nor do many small ga aircraft have anything to do with centre .

 

For example inbound to Cairns you call approach on the local frequency (126.1) who gives you a code and only hands you off to tower when you are essentially in the circuit.

 

Where as at Townsville you call clearance delivery which is a local controller ( military) when you are way out ( before 36 miles if I recall) who gives you a code and hands you off to approach at 36 miles then who hands you off to tower in the circuit. BBN Cen has nothing to do with either situation.

Actually, this is not correct either. And I never said BNE centre.

 

If you want to get technical, The correct answer is not in the ERSA either. Its a combination of ERSA and VTC/VNC.

 

The green frequency on you chart is the frequency you call for a code, and this depends where you are. If outside 22DME in Cairns, in this case you will be calling BNE Centre and they will give you instructions to obtain clearance.

 

 

[ben87r]

Do you have a reference for "the green one is the one to call"?

 

I've never noticed an ACD freq on a chart.

 

 

[Pearo]

So it tells me to call Brisbane Centre 119.5 for clearance. Except if I'm transmitting the CTR, I have to call the tower for the clearance. Why? I have no idea but there will something in the way traffic is coordinated between ATC agencies there which dictates it.

This finer point is often missed. If you want to enter the charlie airspace outside of CTR, GC tower does not give this clearance.

 

At the end of the day, they know where I am going (and my preferred alt), and I don't even request clearance, i just await instruction. My call is 'Centre*, callsign/type, location/alt, To destination'. I think this is stipulated in the AIP. Even when requesting code, you dont specifically need to ask for a code. The request to ATC is implying that you are requesting clearance, and in the case of requesting a code they will respond remain OCTA as if the clearance was not issued.

 

* When I say centre, this will usually be the name in the Green Box on the chart. Mil is the exception as the airspace control will depend on when the airspace is active. However, as I have learned if you call up the Centre Controller and get clearance in CTA BEFORE entering Mil Airspace, the onward clearance is usually more forthcoming :P

 

 

[Pearo]

Do you have a reference for "the green one is the one to call"?I've never noticed an ACD freq on a chart.

Mil airspace is the exception.

 

 

[ben87r]

So your "rule" excludes Class D and MIL airspace then? So basically only a handful of aerodromes and actually the only time that it would be correct that I can see would be if the aerodrome had its own centre or radar freq.

 

Like has been posted it varies and there is no rule as to what has to be done but with experience you will get what each place is asking for and as long as you leave enough time for them to get you to do it correctly it's not an issue.

 

Make a call and do it early, worst that can happen is they ask have you contacted X if you have buggered it up or if they don't want to clear you that early "call again at X miles for clearance" best bit with that is you now know when they want you to call.

 

Questions I ask myself

 

C or D airspace on approach? If D contact tower.

 

Is there an ACD? Yes contact them no do they have a X aedrome centre freq? Contact them

 

Only one left which would be FIR centre freq or approach freq.

 

I contact approach if they ask me to contact FIR for clearance (never happened btw) I will.

 

I suggest to the OP not to get to caught up in it and let your instructor walk you through it a few times. Starts to make sense eventually.

 

 

[Pearo]

Look, I am not saying not to read the ERSA. This should be the first thing you do when flight planning. You will notice there is a little entry in the ERSA about obtaining a code for clearance into Gold Coast, where the OP is flying, ie it tells you what sector to contact and what frequency.

 

The post I put above, was a simple explanation for applund in the area he/she is flying in. The problem is, your first entry into Controlled airspace, especially Class C is very daunting, At this point, its only necessary to keep it simple. This is clearly early days, because by the end of the PPL OP will probably not be asking these questions (although I often still do beyond PPL).

 

BTW, comments like that from DWF are not constructive, and people like DWF should remember that they were students once.

 

So, let me rewrite my basic rules for the pedants.

 

Arrivals:

 

Class G into Class D CTR : contact tower.

 

Class G into Class C CTA or CTR : contact Centre (or APP, refer to charts) for code and clearance details.

 

Class G into MIL, contact Delivery (ACD):

 

Departures:

 

Class D into Class G - contact Ground (SMC) for taxi and clearance,

 

Class D into Class D CTA - ACD or SMC for clearance (refer ERSA) - SMC for taxi clearance.

 

Class D into Class C - ACD or SMC for clearance (refer ERSA)- SMC for taxi clearance. (note departure/airborne reports)

 

Class D into MIL - Contact ACD for clearance, SMC for taxi.

 

Any cases I have missed?

 

Now, for OP what was less confusing?

 

 

[dutchroll]

From AIP. Clearances are always requested. Reports are just stated.

 

 

 

 

[aplund]

Well, what actually happened is a bit different to what was described here.

 

It is company policy to get the code on the ground at YBAF from BN CTR. Which we did. Then when outside YBAF control zone we requested clearance from Brisbane Approach. After a few minutes of this, to maintain VMC, we had to descend into Class G as we couldn't keep under the 1000' vertical class C cloud clearance. So the approach controller "terminated" our service (this always seems like an odd word to use here, but I guess I understand), and told us to contact the tower directly before entering the control zone.

 

Having a look at the airspace, I think we could have flown under the 1500' class C control area and perhaps just called the tower directly, but I'm not sure about this.

 

 

[turboplanner]

So the approach controller "terminated" our service (this always seems like an odd word to use here, but I guess I understand)

They can be obtuse pricks when you need help the most.

I once advised I was diverting to an airfield at a medium size town due to deteriorating weather, and the message back was "You realise this is not an Authorised Landing Area"

 

I decided to take a look and found about five aircraft parked including a couple of twins, so made an uneventful landing.

 

 

[Pearo]

Well, what actually happened is a bit different to what was described here.It is company policy to get the code on the ground at YBAF from BN CTR. Which we did. Then when outside YBAF control zone we requested clearance from Brisbane Approach. After a few minutes of this, to maintain VMC, we had to descend into Class G as we couldn't keep under the 1000' vertical class C cloud clearance. So the approach controller "terminated" our service (this always seems like an odd word to use here, but I guess I understand), and told us to contact the tower directly before entering the control zone.

 

Having a look at the airspace, I think we could have flown under the 1500' class C control area and perhaps just called the tower directly, but I'm not sure about this.

This sounds correct, once you are outside of Controlled airspace, ATC no longer provide control services. However I am not sure of exactly what you were doing, I think I have an idea though.

 

Have a good look at your VTC, note that the CTR (the blue dotted line) at the gold coast is from SFC to 1500. If you are entering the CTR directly from Class G (you would have to be at 1500ft or less), clearance always comes from the tower.

 

Above 1500ft at the GoldCoast, is Class C CTA, in this airspace the clearance comes from Brisbane Centre (who will most likely offload you to APP or DEP for the actual clearance).