Figuring out who to call for clearance

[ian00798]

With the Gold Coast, you need to contact centre first to get a squawk code before contacting tower for a clearance below 1500, as it is a surveillance aerodrome.

 

 

[Pearo]

With the Gold Coast, you need to contact centre first to get a squawk code before contacting tower for a clearance below 1500, as it is a surveillance aerodrome.

FWIW, aplund said they get a code on the ground at YBAF as per company policy.

 

Whilst we have ATC in the house though, what determines when centre give clearance as opposed to getting handed off to approach or depatures for the clearance? I am guessing workload and traffic? I have noticed MIL controllers do the same, often ACD will give you clearance before handing you off, but not always.

 

 

[Pearo]

Also, we need an ian and rhys (any any other lurking ATC) megathread so we can bounce these questions off you guys! Having ATC's here is an awesome resource.

 

Can I start one with your approval?

 

 

[ian00798]

Who gives the clearance is decided by many factors, such as traffic volume, sector configuration, and many other things. Controllers do a process called coordination, and that kind of thing would be determined in that. Normally we follow standard procedures though. I don't really know the controller configuration at Amberley, but there is a chance that the approach controller and ACD may be the same person at times, hence the clearance then frequency change.

 

As for who to call, I can't cover every possible situation here, so my ultimate advice is if in doubt call someone well before the boundary and they will point you in the right direction.

 

I'm happy to answer any questions people ask about ATC things, but I don't have an approach or tower rating so I'm only of limited use there.

 

 

[Graham Pukallus]

Here is another reference for you which maybe of some help.

 

http://www.iainhosking.com/flying/doc/casa/vpg/archer.pdf

 

Doug Mc Cullough and I submitted a flight plan yesterday to fly direct to Clifton from Caboolture this morning, unfortunately the weather made it somewhat dangerous, in particular coming home from Clifton.

 

Our plan was to get the Brisbane ATS to obtain the QNH etc then call BNE Centre once airborn for a clearance and code, Amberley was inactive this morning and we planned to fly 4,500 up to Clifton and 5,500 for the return trip direct.

 

We also intended calling the Amberley CTAF before entering as well, as per Amberley's procedures, when not active.

 

Pity the weather did'nt allow us to proceed with our flight and had to cancel our flight plans and SAR time, as we were looking forward to more experience with Controlled Airspace procedures.

 

Will keep you posted as to our next trip.

 

Aplund if you want to PM me I will let you know of our recent and very positive experiences with ATC during our club trip North to the Whitsundays and Bowen and return through Rochampton etc.

 

They could'nt be more helpful and made our trip that much more enjoyable and safe.

 

Regards Graham

 

 

 

[Graham Pukallus]

Pearo, here is Amberley Airspace info you may be interested in.

 

https://www.raa.asn.au/storage/160304-raaf-amberley-airsapce-clifton-fly-in-guidance-poster-al1.pdf

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Find a flying instructor who will actually sit down with you and brief you properly. This includes not only what to say and to whom, but where to find this information. If your instructor isn't doing this it's because they're lazy or don't know the answers themselves. Either way, find a new instructor and don't hold back on telling why you're changing if asked.

 

 

[Pearo]

Pearo, here is Amberley Airspace info you may be interested in.

https://www.raa.asn.au/storage/160304-raaf-amberley-airsapce-clifton-fly-in-guidance-poster-al1.pdf

Cheers. I have done a fair few trips through Amberly now. The YAMB controllers are fairly accommodating, I cant recall having been refused clearance through there yet. I have been diverted due to incoming aircraft, but I quite enjoy that because its provides some entertainment with mil aircraft!

 

I must admit, my preference is to fly in CTA when I can, and I try to plan CTA where possible. This recent weather has made it difficult for any VFR pilot to maximise time in CTA! I promised myself I would get started on my PIFR this year, so that might help in that regard!

 

 

[Pearo]

Here is another reference for you which maybe of some help.http://www.iainhosking.com/flying/doc/casa/vpg/archer.pdf

 

Regards Graham

Worth noting that the old YBAF VFG is not current (though still has lots of useful stuff in it). The casa OnTrack website should have most of the current info. Its also worth some regular study time with the ERSA with YBAF, because they seem to change the procedures all the time. Ie, I notice that they have dropped the recent requirement to nominate outbound track already. The YBAF controllers are also pretty forgiving within reason (as are YBSU) because they know their bread and butter is pilots in training.

 

http://ontrack.casa.gov.au/index

 

 

[ian00798]

Find a flying instructor who will actually sit down with you and brief you properly. This includes not only what to say and to whom, but where to find this information. If your instructor isn't doing this it's because they're lazy or don't know the answers themselves. Either way, find a new instructor and don't hold back on telling why you're changing if asked.

The best instructors teach you where to find the information, particularly regarding regulations and procedures. These tend to be quite fluid in nature, and it is your responsibility to keep current with them regardless of whether you fly 10 hours each year or 1000. It would be very hard to meet this requirement if you never knew where to find the information in the first place.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Your on nav 2 , i suggest asking your instructor....anyone on nav 2 asking this much detail is either in way over thier head, getting too far ahead of the curve and or needs to consult thier own instructor

 

There is a wealth of knowledge in here, but specifics about your navs really need to be asked and addresse by your own instructor...not only so you get the right answer, but also so they know your level of knowledge and understanding...

 

If you bypass your instructor too much the learning and instruction process gets disjointed and becomes more difficult for both parties. Ask ask and ask your instructor...

 

Bypassing the instructor can lead to mistakes, assumed knowledge and errors..

 

 

[rage83]

One thing I didnt spot on my skim through here was that CTA and CTR are diferent animals. If you can stay below the CTA (which is not always possible) this minimises the work load with who you talk to.

 

ie on approach to gold cost if you are above 1500ft, on a approach from archerfield you will enter the class c CTA, will need to contact brissy center for code, brisbane approach for clearance usually abeam dreamworld then they will hand you off to tower once you are in the ctr.

 

however if you wish to fly at less than 1500ft into the gold coast you will negate the need to contact brisbane approach. You still need to contact brisbane center for code but you will contact tower directly for clearance. This is why the note was there for the VFR routes for transitting the CTR.

 

And as otheres have stated there is no real easy hard and fast way in and out of different aerodromes, each have there little quirks, some have approach points they want you to fly VFR inboud to and some don't.

 

I have been told a couple of times and done it myself now, if you are unsure of procedures or clarity in ERSA give the tower guys a call at local aerodrome, whether class c, d or military , they are usually pretty casual to talk to and would prefer you call up and get the procedures right. The other thing is when flying inbound to a new aerodrome, let them know you are unfamiliar with area they wont give you points like shopping centers to track to they will vector you as much as possible.

 

 

[Pearo]

give the tower guys a call at local aerodrome, whether class c, d or military , they are usually pretty casual to talk to and would prefer you call up and get the procedures right.

This point cant be stressed enough.

 

Most Class D towers will also allow students to visit, and this is well worth the excercise

 

 

[shags_j]

Wow some weird information in here.

 

The Green frequency isn't always the one you should call. That is the class G frequency so if you are flying in class G then yes, that would be the one you would call. Be careful using blanket statements.

 

Otherwise Ian is right. You need to speak to your instructor to find out who is the most appropriate to call. Basically as far as ATC is concerned you call first sector for a clearance that you will be entering CTA. However since DAH is a bit dry I suspect you won't necessarily know which sectors are which.

 

For example the 119.5 is actually an approach sector (Sunshine) that sets the aircraft up for the CTA approach sector (BAC - Brisbane Approach Cooloongatta) which is 123.5. Yes it is confusing hence why you should always check ERSA, check any VFRG's and last but not least, if you really don't know, call ATC on the current frequency you should be on and ask us. We are not that bad. I regularly get guys as far south as Coffs calling and asking for their Gold Coast squawk code so they can get it on the txpdr early. No problem with this also.

 

Pearo and Rage are also right in that last post. However don't only check out the towers, come in to Brisbane or Melbourne center. If you want you should be able to get in and see how we work and maybe plug in behind one of the controllers and have a listen. If you are worried, one of the ATC's on here (I'm happy to oblige) might be able to help organise this for you. Alternatively there are regular pilot nights held in the center here that include a trip into "the room". These are for VFR and PIFR pilots more than the RPT's so make use of them.

 

EDIT: Aplund or whoever was saying that Approach were dicks, remember these guys have the stressful jobs and are under high workloads, you may not be able to hear it so perhaps give them a break...

 

 

[Pearo]

Wow some weird information in here.The Green frequency isn't always the one you should call. That is the class G frequency so if you are flying in class G then yes, that would be the one you would call. Be careful using blanket statements.

 

Otherwise Ian is right. You need to speak to your instructor to find out who is the most appropriate to call. Basically as far as ATC is concerned you call first sector for a clearance that you will be entering CTA. However since DAH is a bit dry I suspect you won't necessarily know which sectors are which.

 

For example the 119.5 is actually an approach sector (Sunshine) that sets the aircraft up for the CTA approach sector (BAC - Brisbane Approach Cooloongatta) which is 123.5. Yes it is confusing hence why you should always check ERSA, check any VFRG's and last but not least, if you really don't know, call ATC on the current frequency you should be on and ask us. We are not that bad. I regularly get guys as far south as Coffs calling and asking for their Gold Coast squawk code so they can get it on the txpdr early. No problem with this also.

 

Pearo and Rage are also right in that last post. However don't only check out the towers, come in to Brisbane or Melbourne center. If you want you should be able to get in and see how we work and maybe plug in behind one of the controllers and have a listen. If you are worried, one of the ATC's on here (I'm happy to oblige) might be able to help organise this for you. Alternatively there are regular pilot nights held in the center here that include a trip into "the room". These are for VFR and PIFR pilots more than the RPT's so make use of them.

 

EDIT: Aplund or whoever was saying that Approach were dicks, remember these guys have the stressful jobs and are under high workloads, you may not be able to hear it so perhaps give them a break...

I was the one that said the green frequency, assuming most people here flying VFR in CTA will be using VNC's and VTC's.

 

Re Gold Coast, I am going to fess up here and state my ignorance. I have landed and transited GC a few times now, and I know the procedure. I am sure that the ERSA has details and I think I hinted at that earlier, but I cheat and use the VTC which has details on who to contact for clearance.

 

Note: Adding shags to the list of people we need to invite to a potential ATC megathread.

 

BTW Shags, surely the DAH is not targeted at pilots?

 

 

[Pearo]

EDIT: Aplund or whoever was saying that Approach were dicks, remember these guys have the stressful jobs and are under high workloads, you may not be able to hear it so perhaps give them a break...

Oh, and on this subject I have had some cranky ATC before, but I realise these folks get inundated.

 

What we also dont realise is that sometimes we dont hear other aircraft when ATC do, so often we talk over them. Sometimes they cannot deal with us because they are busy with other aircraft. But sometimes we hear the best of it, today for example. I heard ATC repeatedly calling another aircraft, everyone went silent, and it was clear a few of us on frequency were a little concerned. Then ATC asked another aircraft to attempt a relay, and we heard that ATC could hear the other aircraft but they could not hear him. Same trip, I was VFR and yet ATC still provided me with traffic information that was not requested.

 

I do get a little annoyed when people rag on ATC's, we get far more from them than they get from us (if they get anything at all from us?). These folk dont get anywhere near enough credit for what they do.

 

 

[ian00798]

Pearo, unfortunately the DAH is supposed to also be for pilots. Having said that, I don't know any pilots that do use it. I don't even know any that own a copy. As for angry ATC, it's really not that professional and annoys me that some think it's ok. I think it is changing and ATC is getting better at been helpful, however admonishing an inexperienced pilot trying to navigate complex airspace isn't fair, and really discourages a pilot from calling ATC when needed. After all, the role of an ATC is the safe, orderly and expeditious management of air traffic, not just IFR RPT traffic.

 

 

[aplund]

Find a flying instructor who will actually sit down with you and brief you properly. This includes not only what to say and to whom, but where to find this information. If your instructor isn't doing this it's because they're lazy or don't know the answers themselves. Either way, find a new instructor and don't hold back on telling why you're changing if asked.

I'm not sure what gave you the impression that I wasn't briefed properly? We brief every flight exhaustively. My question was in relation to a generic set of rules. It's all well and good to teach people to "say this" or "do this", but without the why and the context then your learning (from my experience as a student and a (non-aviation) teacher) is less rounded.

 

I'm not expecting my instructors to have all the answers to this. It seems to involve knowing the history and specific information not contained in ERSA or any other document.

 

There is generally limited time for briefings, so I try and keep focused on the current flight. I sometimes ask more generic questions, but as then answers (as seen in the length of response to this thread) can be rather long winded and takes up valuable time. This forum is a great resource and I thought I'd put the question here.

 

EDIT: Aplund or whoever was saying that Approach were dicks, remember these guys have the stressful jobs and are under high workloads, you may not be able to hear it so perhaps give them a break...

I think someone implied this from what I said about being told that as we descended into Class G due to the cloud that "control services terminated". This seems to be common terminology. It just makes me think of a quite popular movie, but that's just my lack of exposure to these terms. I wasn't insinuating that the approach controller was in a foul mood.

 

Just finally, did a navigation exercise through YBSU yesterday. It all proceeded exactly as expected. However, we were told to join a right base for runway 18. After the read-back I set our heading appropriately and began a decent to circuit altitude. My instructor jumped straight on the radio to request a visual approach (as I think he thought I forgot this part). I thought that the circuit joining instructions were sufficient for this, but anyway, as you guys say I'm still learning this stuff. But it turns out that I was right and the response from the tower was "As per Class D procedures...".

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

not a bad thread at all and aplund by now you will realise that there are a lot of resources at your disposal to learn this aviation thing.. over awed at some times, we all go through that stage but at the end everything becomes clearer (until there is a rule or procedure change and that happens only too often)

 

Just ask questions in your pre flight briefing to ensure that you understand all the tasks you will be undertaking, as there is no point in not asking.. the only stupid question will be the one you don't ask... in the air as well, At about $6 a minute dual these days don't give your instructor any time to relax..