ATSB report into light aircraft engine failures

[turboplanner]

Since Fishla found it necessary to give the previous post a "Creative", here is the actual graph from page 6

 

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Ok Turbs, you have shown that I just skim read stuff I don't like. But that graph sure looks like its proportional to the number in service, with the proviso that air-cooled Jabiru are easier to abuse than liquid-cooled Rotax. It's strange that Lycomings etc were included, they are GA are they not.

 

And FT, I have a picture of the burned-out Onex posted here a few months ago. It was a Volkswagen engine, and the pilot got out in time. And in another example, there was a mate of mine who gave up power flying after his first flight with a Volkswagen engine. That's 2 out of 3 for me. Not statistically much of a sample but at least I'm being honest.

 

On the subject of honesty, here's 3 examples of the government lying to me:

 

1. The weapons of mass destruction... this was so weak they couldn't have believed it themselves but they pretended to.

 

2. The CPI... rhymes with big fat lie and so it is. They think of creative ways to hold this figure down and do indeed fool a lot of mugs.

 

3. The unemployment rate. You are not counted if you have 1 hour a week, even though you are looking for full-time work, and there are other tricks to hide the truth.

 

So where is the raw data on those engines? If they are honest then that will be available at least in de-identified form.

 

 

[turboplanner]

You've probably seen most of it in the RAA reports.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Bruce, 4 VW + 2 Revmaster + 1 Aeropower = 7 VW engine failures

 

add your 2 and that makes 9, a long way off Jabiru's 130+ failures, is your engine in that list of Jabiru failures?

 

 

[facthunter]

ft there's nothing like the number of hours done by VW variants in total as Jabiru do. I would agree with Bruce on the VW reliability factor, just from observation about the place, but you are lumping a lot of different engines in together, and where people are installing these things themselves there are a lot of variables. Some would be quite old from cars as most of the EA 81 Subaru's are.The report also states the Jabiru is better re corrosion than a Rotax. How could they possibly arrive at that conclusion? . No mention of the Chev Corvair? and only one De Havilland . Some were built by GMH. There would be very few RAAUs planes with Contilycs in them and they could be of dubious ancestry, with the exception of RV's where they are generally brand new engines.. Most RAAus eligible have Rotax 912's fitted. Interesting GA Jabiru's are less reliable than RAAus ones. Really it's hard to analyse this document and get much of value from it.

 

When the carburetter is mounted below the engine it's a much safer situation than anywhere else. Float carburetters are a dreadful idea on an aeroplane, unless gravity feed like a Tiger Moth, but they often catch fire when crashed too. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

FH, perhaps you've missed it, but we just haven't seen volumes of Corvairs falling out of the sky in recent years, and the Continentals and Lycomings, even with the dubious ancestry you attribute to them, haven't lived up to your previous claims.

 

Bit embarrassing.

 

 

[jetjr]

Very quick run through ATSB info for 2015 sees just 10 engine failures in Jabiru engines (unless I searched poorly) Only one with symptom listed, most just say "vibration or failure"

 

That will make difference to numbers depending on hours flown

 

 

[fly_tornado]

The numbers are the numbers, the ATSB only sees the engine failures that lead to a reportable incident, the RAA (should) see the engines that fail on the ground and Jabiru sees all the engines that are rebuildable. You have to wonder how many fail and just get left in hangars. The RAA had 300 aircraft drop off the registry over the last few years, so who knows how many are broken.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Very quick run through ATSB info for 2015 sees just 10 engine failures in Jabiru engines (unless I searched poorly) Only one with symptom listed, most just say "vibration or failure"That will make difference to numbers depending on hours flown

"just 10 failures?"

 

That seems a little high compared to the RAA figures I pulled, so either there has been an increase in incidents, or there are still some numbers in there that I wouldn't call forced landing material.

 

From the figures I collected:

 

2007 Jab 6 Rotax 0

 

2008 Jab 8 Rotax 0

 

2009 Jab 6 Rotax 1

 

2010 Jab 6 Rotax 1

 

2011 Jab 12 Rotax 0

 

2012 Jan-Mar Jab 2 Rotax 1

 

Total Jab 40 Rotax 3

 

I would call 2011 an aberration, unless the full year 2012 and later figures have suddenly climbed.

 

Incidentally, the RAA reports in many cases list 2200A, B C etc, and I can separate these out and also separate out 3300 and 3300 A etc if anyone is interested in the figures by engine model for that particular 2007-Mar 2012 batch of RAA figures.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

The last thing I would do would be to tell CASA anything. They would only make things worse.

 

This was the basic finding of the Forsyth review... that CASA were being denied information because they were so awful.

 

And my incident was during a ground run and had nothing to do with in flight failure . It was a ground run vibration , caused by me operating the engine in contravention of the manufacturers manual, after 13 years of trouble-free running.

 

It's all fixed now, with a nearly new replacement head. The old head showed no signs of overheat except for that valve seat falling out. I tried the old head valve guides with a "go no go gauge" from Jabiru and it passed this test just fine, as did the newer head going in.

 

 

[jetjr]

Id doubt many have the money to leave a broken aircraft in the shed especially considering relatively cheap repairs to Jabiru engines.

 

report seems to say data is more detailed for Jabiru than others.

 

ATSB data doesnt detail engine other than brand but does break down by aircraft model.

 

The A and B name change in engines doesnt tell you much about its stage of development. Serial numbers do though.

 

http://jabiru.net.au/Manuals/Engine/Summary%20of%20significant%20engine%20changes%20May%2009.pdf

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Contact your local RAA rep and ask them to furnish you with a list of aircraft that haven't had their rego renewed in the last few years and you will see what's really happening.

 

 

[turboplanner]

The A and B name change in engines doesnt tell you much about its stage of development. Serial numbers do though.

I agree; before you have your car serviced the VIN No goes on the Repair Order, so the Manufacturer is able to database the Dealer service records by VIN, and that provides all the other detailed information, so analysis is very accurate and very timely.

Anyone know whether RAA have brought in this type of accuracy in the changeover to digital reporting yet?

 

 

[jetjr]

You certainly have to list engine details inc serial No. on rego renewal so data should be there. Maybe the two data systems dont work together though.

 

I also think RAA dont share members details without approval, not sure if that goes for aircraft rego and types

 

 

[turboplanner]

You certainly have to list engine details inc serial No. on rego renewal so data should be there. Maybe the two data systems dont work together though.I also think RAA dont share members details without approval, not sure if that goes for aircraft rego and types

This is the ideal, from BITRE (Bureau of Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Economics) division of DIRD (Department of Infrastructure and Regional Development)

 

Since we, CASA, Airservices ATSB are part of the DIRD umbrella, it should be reasonably simple to adopt this same format

 

https://bitre.gov.au/statistics/safety/fatal_road_crash_database.aspx

 

Note that registration/personal details are replaced by an accident code. Currently only CASA publish ownership details to the general public, and that should have been discontinued long ago.

 

I work with some road safety people, and it's amazing what data can be extracted from those files to address very specific safety issues.

 

 

[BLA82]

[quote="Bruce Tuncks, post: 550297, member: 731"

 

And Bex, I appreciate your argument about things need to be foolproof on account of there being so many fools, but I don't want to pay more for this feature, or carry extra weight.

 

Bruce welcome to the current age, everything these days is made as fool proof as possible.

 

And as far as saying VW engines have a bad record, when did mr VW say way back when that his engines were suitable for aviation use, people who use and modify them do so at there own risk. Jabiru make a claim that there engines are fit for a purpose and sell them as that but what is slowly coming out is that they arnt Or at least not as safe as they claim. The numbers are there 130+ reported failures vs the low rate of others and yet they still want the ATSB to change their report.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

And Bex, I appreciate your argument about things need to be foolproof on account of there being so many fools, but I don't want to pay more for this feature, or carry extra weight.

A cheaper engine may be tolerable for being heavier, acceptable for having cheaper bits such as carb rather than efi, and would be completely acceptable to have a lower TBO, but under no circumstance is it tolerable to be unreliable just because it's cheaper.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I agree with the fact that reliability is paramount Bex, but an engine which is reliable when operated properly is quite acceptable to me.

 

That's why I want to know what the real statistics are with the failures caused by abuse, such as overheating and bad fuel, put in a separate category.

 

Here's the last engine failure I have come into contact with... the Technam which went down near Lake Eyre with a conrod through the block. Yes it was a Rotax. And the previous one was the Volkswagen one.

 

Most days in the meantime, Jabirus at Gawler are busy doing training.

 

So I want to know more details. There's such a detail I happen to know... a Jabiru which went down near Broken Hill a few years ago was flown by a mate of mine who had never been taught about the pull-over test each morning.

 

The engine had lost an exhaust valve and when I asked him about how it felt that morning on pull-through he didn't know what I was talking about. But I bet his incident is in those statistics.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I agree with the fact that reliability is paramount Bex, but an engine which is reliable when operated properly is quite acceptable to me.That's why I want to know what the real statistics are with the failures caused by abuse, such as overheating and bad fuel, put in a separate category.

Here's the last engine failure I have come into contact with... the Technam which went down near Lake Eyre with a conrod through the block. Yes it was a Rotax. And the previous one was the Volkswagen one.

 

Most days in the meantime, Jabirus at Gawler are busy doing training.

 

So I want to know more details. There's such a detail I happen to know... a Jabiru which went down near Broken Hill a few years ago was flown by a mate of mine who had never been taught about the pull-over test each morning.

 

The engine had lost an exhaust valve and when I asked him about how it felt that morning on pull-through he didn't know what I was talking about. But I bet his incident is in those statistics.

Bruce, if you want recreational aviation to be free of the paperwork load of GA, and you want to service your own aircraft, then you have to put up with the peer level of skills, and that means people who don't have above average mechanical skills, and don't know how to analyse what went wrong, and don't know how to write reports.

I've said several times that the recent issues with Jab engines are intermittent issues, and for that reason you can't say that because the aircraft at any one airport, of varying hours haven't had a problem, there's nothing wrong, and nor can you say that just because you own one it WILL have a problem; you need the bulk statistics.

 

Bottom line is that unless RAA adopt a process where someone goes to the location, or at the very least conducts an interview, and prompts the information out of the owner (which I would consider a practical solution), you are not going to get the correct basic information every time, and for reasons we've mentioned over and over again, no one except perhaps the manufacturer is going to go the the expense of metallurgical and other testing to get from the symptom (engine stopped, bolt found sheared) to the exact cause of the failure, just as no one is going to do it for your ag bike, land cruiser or stationary engines.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

So I want to know more details. There's such a detail I happen to know... a Jabiru which went down near Broken Hill a few years ago was flown by a mate of mine who had never been taught about the pull-over test each morning.The engine had lost an exhaust valve and when I asked him about how it felt that morning on pull-through he didn't know what I was talking about. But I bet his incident is in those statistics.

Pulling through an engine isn't something that appears in the RAA training syllabus. How many hours did the engine have on it? I think this is the issue here Bruce, its 2016 not 1986 Jabiru need to put out a motor that meets community standards.

 

 

[gandalph]

Interesting FT. What is the "community standard" you say Jabiru should meet? Is that enunciated somewhere in the CASA lexicon? Perhaps the FAA has such a beast? What abut the Europeans, they must surely have one we could adopt???

 

Would I be right to I assume that you mean that ALL engines used in aircraft need to meet your "community standard" not just Jabiru?

 

 

[01rmb]

Pulling through an engine isn't something that appears in the RAA training syllabus. How many hours did the engine have on it? I think this is the issue here Bruce, its 2016 not 1986 Jabiru need to put out a motor that meets community standards.

The RAA Training syllabus requires the pilot to follow the Pilot Operating Handbook for the aircraft. The POH for the Jabiru - Pre-flight Inspections Step 1 Engine requires Check oil and Pull through engine checking compression of each cylinder and listening for any odd noises. If not conducted then the pilot is in breach of the POH and not adhering to the RAA standards requiring the pilot to follow the aircraft POH.

And as far as being 2016 - Jabiru have made improvement to the engines with improved through bolts and valves as well as a move to roller cams to eliminate identified failure modes. Withstanding a long history of engines with a wide range of configuration since 1992 the ATSB report has not found a problem with the latest spec through bolts or roller cam valve train. Even using ATSB's figures at least 20% of the Jabiru engines in service have the larger 7/16 through bolt. So obviously not all Jabiru engines are the same.

 

Operating within the manufacturers limitations and following their specified maintenance schedule and procedures is absolutely a requirement for ongoing successful operations.

 

 

[jetjr]

Im regularly surprisd about some Jabiru owners dont know about potential problems and fixes. Their only souce of info is manufacturer.

 

As the data doesnt even differentiate 4 and 6 cyl models and failures and according to Jabiru have uses of the aircraft wrong, its just a very small data set - worrying for sure - not too much faith can be had that limitations OR even more importantly engineering improvements are well directed.

 

It seems to take 14 months to review data, hardly call that closely momitored as they recommend.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Don't blame CASA blame the "do gooders" in the Liberal National Party for these draconian "safety" laws.

 

Your best bet is making a token donation to Senator O'Sullivan's campaign and letting him remove the restrictions and let the good times roll again.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Gosh f t , I have been blaming the pinko-greeny fat lady sociologist vegetarians ... looks like I was wrong.

 

But seriously, every time there is a problem, the media seems to be asking the government to "do something" and this over-regulation is the result. And yes we should support O'Sullivan.