Two dead after ultra-light plane crash in Victoria's north

[Teckair]

You think this is funny? This could turn quite nasty and not even vaguely funny going by information available on this thread.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Sounds like it was a commercial operation filming the Vietnamese version of the amazing race; there was a camera on the ground as well, so that may shed some light on the last moments.http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/plane-crash-victims-in-yarrawonga-to-film-the-amazing-race-20160314-gnitbh.html

It does sound like a commercial operation. Wonder why it was in a RAAus aircraft. Video will no doubt shed some light. Lets hope RAAus get an initial report out soon like they did with the Katoomba crash.

 

 

[jamel]

This could turn quite nasty and not even vaguely funny going by information available on this thread.

Lets hope not for those left behind

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

"The design of the aircraft meant it had to be flown at high speeds to avoid crashing. "

 

Typical journalist...really do research into the aircraft dont they. It never ceases to amaze me that these people never seem to get the facts correct...or maybe its on purpose to promote some sensationalism

 

 

[ev17ifly2]

You think this is funny? This could turn quite nasty and not even vaguely funny going by information available on this thread.

Sorry, this site needs two buttons - "funny ha ha" and "funny rediculous" then in the case of you and Bats I could have used the latter.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Typical journalist...really do research into the aircraft dont they. It never ceases to amaze me that these people never seem to get the facts correct...or maybe its on purpose to promote some sensationalism

Depending in the Journalist, that may be the first aircraft story that Journalist has ever been to; he/she just takes notes of what's being said. The Journalist may have used words to the same effect as he/she had been told, but not understood the significance of what had just been said.

 

 

[Bats]

Oh dear, school's out again. I suppose we can shelve discussion until mum tucks them in tonight.

 

 

[kasper]

Putting aside the should we discuss/query/speculate and apart from expressing sympathy to those that knew them I have items I have raised eyebrows on from what has been reported (ill or accurate)

 

1. possible commercial ops from an RAAus aircraft - yes or no ???

 

2. given the filming shots and tracking of the US main program I have seen on TV the Vietnamese filming reported to have been underway might have involved some non-standard flying ... what does any footage show???

 

3. The owner recently purchased the aircraft and it is a high performance wing for a WS ... wonder how familiar and practiced he was in this wing???

 

4. Willy willy /dust Devil / external impact on flight ???

 

I do not know the Arrow wing, I have flown many wings from various manufacturers and there is no real comparison between them in many cases ... and the highest performance wing from Airborne I have flown is the Streak III and I found it to have very little static stability in both axis of movement ... it is a wing I can see people getting into trouble with quickly with inattention so I am interested in the even higher performance Arrow wing from that perspective.

 

 

[Dinga]

and the highest performance wing from Airborne I have flown is the Streak III and I found it to have very little static stability in both axis of movement ... it is a wing I can see people getting into trouble with quickly with inattention so I am interested in the even higher performance Arrow wing from that perspective.

Hi Kasper,

 

I would be interested to hear more or from others on your Streak III comments as I was under the assumption (only from others as I have never flown a Streak III) that this wing was a generally well rounded and stable wing in comparison lets say to the earlier Streak and Streak II versions.

 

Would like to hear anything you or anyone else wants to add on this especially when you say "I can see people getting into trouble with quickly".

 

Whilst this may not be the thread for it I am always interested to hear the more experienced among us comments on the likes of the Streaks, Cruz & Arrow S & K wings. It's all information I like to tuck away for upgrade time :-)

 

Cheers

 

 

[Teckair]

Sorry, this site needs two buttons - "funny ha ha" and "funny rediculous" then in the case of you and Bats I could have used the latter.

Saying wait for the report is what is ridiculous.

 

 

[Butch]

Oh dear, school's out again. I suppose we can shelve discussion until mum tucks them in tonight

I know where you are coming from Bats!

We aren't all Vultures on this site .....but we all fly some sort of machine .... it really hits home when a tragedy happens!

 

I have a wife and kids and when something like this happens I get doubts about flying and I'm keen to know what's gone wrong.

 

Forum members may speculate , repeat rumors or get it all wrong.... but at least its out there for us to make our own decision.

 

I think our own insecurities make us seek answers or offer logical reasons.....right or wrong.

 

Hopefully we will all learn something from this shocking accident so it doesn't happen again.

 

Condolences to all the families and friends.

 

 

[Keenaviator]

Hi Kasper,I would be interested to hear more or from others on your Streak III comments as I was under the assumption (only from others as I have never flown a Streak III) that this wing was a generally well rounded and stable wing in comparison lets say to the earlier Streak and Streak II versions.

Would like to hear anything you or anyone else wants to add on this especially when you say "I can see people getting into trouble with quickly".

 

Whilst this may not be the thread for it I am always interested to hear the more experienced among us comments on the likes of the Streaks, Cruz & Arrow S & K wings. It's all information I like to tuck away for upgrade time :-)

 

Cheers

Most of my trike time is in a Pegasus Quantum with Q2 wing and Pegasus Q with a Q wing. Both these machines were sweet, particularly the Q. I have also flown and Airborne Edge (very ordinary compared) and the streak 3 which was the closest in harmony with the Q2. I also had an Airborne with the old Arrow wing (based on a Moyes GTR) and it was very poor.

 

 

[kaz3g]

".......... I now have a firm rule for media questions - they put their questions to me via email and I immediately respond in the same fashion, offering to clarify any points they don't understand and with a little rider that any misquoting or unsupported inferences WILL result in a complaint to the Aus Press Council. Generally it's all too much trouble and they leave me alone.

Sadly, my own experience suggests that complaints to the APC generally don't even attract an acknowledgment, let alone an interactive response.

 

A slightly better outcome is stipulating the right of editing the script prior to publication and getting an agreement in writing.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Bats]

Yeah fortunately I haven't had to resort to that - the fact that someone isn't prepared to offer a sound bite that can be mangled to suit is generally sufficient deterrent. I have stipulated the right to edit in the past, but it wasn't well received and has been refused too. My position is that I'd rather not be quoted than misquoted and given that by the time something reaches editor level, there is generally more concern over producing an attention grabbing headline, than the truth, I prefer to stay clear. At least that way they cannot validly trot out the old, declined/refused to comment chestnut.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Firstly condolences to the family and friends of the deceased

 

I flew Airborne Wizard, Streak 1, Streak 2, 2B Streak 3 & a SST wings

 

Wizard- hated it, smacked around by turbulence, speed wobbles over 45kts when tucking the bar in to lose height

 

Streak 1 wing- nice wing overall with inflight trim but slow (50kts)

 

Streak 2 nice all round wing overall with inflight trim (54kts)

 

Streak 2B nice wing overall with no inflight adjustable trim and set reflex (54 kts)

 

Streak 3 - loved it quite stable pin point your landings and reasonable speed (60-61kts hands off)

 

SST- overrated, claimed 70kts trim which the best I saw was 67kts but sat right wing low when in the front hole, middle hole (62kts) was much better, nice in turbulence as it was always in compression being strutted but could Dutch roll (side slip) really easy if you changed direction really quickly which was a horrible feeling as you basically felt like you flew side ways with what felt like minimal control and had to roll towards the skid to get it to basically hook up

 

Did it twice, first time during a S turn and second time just after it to see if it was just a 1 off

 

Never did it again

 

From what I have heard the Arrow is a SST basically with a meter off the wingspan which helped the handing some what I am told

 

Overall I did about 760 hrs combined with Airborne wings mostly on the 1, 3 & SST

 

Never had any issues other than the SST those 2 times

 

 

[Dinga]

Firstly condolences to the family and friends of the deceasedI flew Airborne Wizard, Streak 1, Streak 2, 2B Streak 3 & a SST wings

 

Wizard- hated it, smacked around by turbulence, speed wobbles over 45kts when tucking the bar in to lose height

 

Streak 1 wing- nice wing overall with inflight trim but slow (50kts)

 

Streak 2 nice all round wing overall with inflight trim (54kts)

 

Streak 2B nice wing overall with no inflight adjustable trim and set reflex (54 kts)

 

Streak 3 - loved it quite stable pin point your landings and reasonable speed (60-61kts hands off)

 

SST- overrated, claimed 70kts trim which the best I saw was 67kts but sat right wing low when in the front hole, middle hole (62kts) was much better, nice in turbulence as it was always in compression being strutted but could Dutch roll (side slip) really easy if you changed direction really quickly which was a horrible feeling as you basically felt like you flew side ways with what felt like minimal control and had to roll towards the skid to get it to basically hook up

 

Did it twice, first time during a S turn and second time just after it to see if it was just a 1 off

 

Never did it again

 

From what I have heard the Arrow is a SST basically with a meter off the wingspan which helped the handing some what I am told

 

Overall I did about 760 hrs combined with Airborne wings mostly on the 1, 3 & SST

 

Never had any issues other than the SST those 2 times

Hi Alf,

 

Amazing and thanks for sharing, I have flown Wizard, Streak 1 (that I own) and Cruz but am very low hrs, great to hear comments from long termers like yourself, cheers.

 

 

[kasper]

Hi Kasper,I would be interested to hear more or from others on your Streak III comments as I was under the assumption (only from others as I have never flown a Streak III) that this wing was a generally well rounded and stable wing in comparison lets say to the earlier Streak and Streak II versions.

Would like to hear anything you or anyone else wants to add on this especially when you say "I can see people getting into trouble with quickly".

 

Whilst this may not be the thread for it I am always interested to hear the more experienced among us comments on the likes of the Streaks, Cruz & Arrow S & K wings. It's all information I like to tuck away for upgrade time :-)

 

Cheers

What I meant is that the streakIII wing has little static stability. The force required to move the wing from any position is very low and the wing has very little force moving it back to the balanced state ... its a wing that is easy to fly because it has little for to overcome BUT it has weak return to centre - compare it with something from the early wings and the force to move the wing from trim was high and it returned to trim as soon as you release the wing.

The reason it is an easy wing to get into trouble with is that as well as the low force to move the wing its fast ... and the faster wings run a lower angle of attack than slower wings ... and its possible when flying fast and throwing a wing to get to neg incidence. Plus the streak III wing I flew would drop either wing very easily and very strongly at the stall even when entered from straight and level and with slow deceleration ...

 

if you are throwing a streak III around down near the ground chasing a good film shot I can easily imagine it getting pulled around too slow and stalling in the turn and ending badly. Not saying this is what happened - the same result could be imagined if you are slowing down in a turn in the circuit and got hit by a willy willy ... again not saying this happened but with a high performance wing with low force and low static stability you just have to be very aware of whats happening.

 

 

[Dinga]

What I meant is that the streakIII wing has little static stability. The force required to move the wing from any position is very low and the wing has very little force moving it back to the balanced state ... its a wing that is easy to fly because it has little for to overcome BUT it has weak return to centre - compare it with something from the early wings and the force to move the wing from trim was high and it returned to trim as soon as you release the wing.The reason it is an easy wing to get into trouble with is that as well as the low force to move the wing its fast ... and the faster wings run a lower angle of attack than slower wings ... and its possible when flying fast and throwing a wing to get to neg incidence. Plus the streak III wing I flew would drop either wing very easily and very strongly at the stall even when entered from straight and level and with slow deceleration ...

 

if you are throwing a streak III around down near the ground chasing a good film shot I can easily imagine it getting pulled around too slow and stalling in the turn and ending badly. Not saying this is what happened - the same result could be imagined if you are slowing down in a turn in the circuit and got hit by a willy willy ... again not saying this happened but with a high performance wing with low force and low static stability you just have to be very aware of whats happening.

Nice, thanks for clarifying Kasper and that really does confirm what I have experienced with my Streak I. Like I said previously its a learning experience and I like to hear from those with something to offer.

 

 

[MikeBravoYanky]

According to channel 7 news the pilot was Ian Cook from Mt Evelyn and he had recently bought the trike from Peter McLean. Nothing to say anyone had done anything wrong but did mention that there were dust devils near the strip.

Does anyone know if this Ian Cook is the same who held the GM position at Thales Bendigo (formerly ADI formerly Ordnance Factory).. I knew him and he told me about his early years flying gliders.. I would just like to know.. it makes a big difference to me.. very sad..

 

 

[Guest debra stewart]

condolences to all involved. very sad indeed.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Sincere condolences to family and friends.

 

Regarding the objections to discussion of the circumstances, speculation or otherwise, as far as I'm concerned it's another example of political correctness gone mad.

 

It's perfectly natural for humans to be inquisitive and curious, and if we weren't we wouldn't have developed to the extent where we have produced machines that can do all manner of things, including flying.

 

Should there be such a thing as the afterlife I really can't imagine anyone having any objection to a bit of conjecture over how they got there. We all know we have insufficient hands-on crash investigation in most cases, and without peer-discussion of likely scenarios our safety record would never improve. It's not just a case of discussing the actual issue that caused the crash, it's also a case of people giving thought to all the other possibilities that could affect each of us at any time in the future, if they're not regularly brought to mind. We can never have enough reminders because the sky isn't a place that's very forgiving of even the slightest errors.

 

In the unhappy event that something should go wrong with one of my flights, and if I end up on a similar thread, I certainly hope and invite that the discussion about it would be lively and wide-ranging and that it might lead to someone else avoiding the same fate. I'm sure my friends and family would see it the same way.

 

 

[ave8rr]

Will we see an accident "Brief" from RAAus or was the Katoomba accident Brief a one off?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Accident briefs are engine dependant it seems.

 

 

[gandalph]

Accident briefs are engine dependant it seems.

I don't think that's correct Merv. There's been no brief so far on the Millard incident so I'm not sure we can say what triggers a brief.

 

 

[Bats]

Might also be that they haven't been able to nail the cause down yet - no point in saying "nothing to worry about" and it turns out there was an aircraft issue