Two dead after ultra-light plane crash in Victoria's north

[motzartmerv]

I don't think that's correct Merv. There's been no brief so far on the Millard incident so I'm not sure we can say what triggers a brief.

Exactly. But 2 days after the Katoomba crash we had a "brief" stating " it was not the engine" ... Pretty speedy investigation ....

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I don't think that's correct Merv. There's been no brief so far on the Millard incident so I'm not sure we can say what triggers a brief.

Exactly. But 2 days after the Katoomba crash we had a "brief" stating " it was not the engine" ... Pretty speedy investigation ....

 

 

[Teckair]

I don't think that's correct Merv. There's been no brief so far on the Millard incident so I'm not sure we can say what triggers a brief.

After that the Ops team covered complacency with experienced pilots in their column.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Obviously RAA are looking at these threads...a prelim advice on the last 2 accidents. Thanks RAA this is what we all need keep it up

 

 

[gandalph]

Just received in my email inbox.

 

Recreational Avaiation Australia RAA Facebook RAA Twitter

 

Advice to members regarding recent fatalities

 

RAAus is saddened to advise members of two recent fatal accidents. Our thoughts are with all concerned at this very difficult time.

 

Dubbo, NSW

 

A man died in an accident south of Dubbo near his property on 10 March 2016 while looking to land his Rotax 912ULS powered Savannah aircraft.

 

Preliminary evidence observed at the accident site in addition to witness statements indicate the engine appeared to be operating at impact. To fully examine the engine NSW Police are conducting a supervised engine tear down.

 

The post impact fire consumed much of the aircraft, including the instrumentation, flight control systems and surfaces. Initial investigations however suggest there is unlikely to be any mechanical or maintenance related issues associated with this accident.

 

Our preliminary assessment of the evidence appears to support a possible loss of control at low level with the cause as yet undetermined. RAAus will continue to work with authorities on the investigation and advise members again once we have more information.

 

*Name of the pilot yet to be formally released.

 

Yarrawonga, VIC

 

Mr Ian Cook and Mr Vu Quoc died while flying a Rotax 912ULS powered weightshift microlight Airborne XT912 on Sunday 13 March 2016. RAAus attended the scene and are working with police as this investigation is still in the very early stages.

 

Preliminary investigations indicate no mechanical or maintenance related issues are associated with the accident. RAAus will continue to work with the police and witnesses to fully explore the circumstances surrounding this accident.

 

These two recent accidents serve as devastating reminders of how unforgiving our sport can be. RAAus remains committed to keeping our sport safe and fun and we ask that all members continue to adhere to our core safety messages.

 

You can find more information about our safety programs on our website under the heading safety.

 

Michael

 

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[tillmanr]

Yes, a response from RAA, brief but a response that is better than silence.

 

 

[ave8rr]

Obviously RAA are looking at these threads...a prelim advice on the last 2 accidents. Thanks RAA this is what we all need keep it up

Agree Mark, I would like to think RAAus was writing the report prior to post 72 above....

Mike

 

 

[Dinga]

Thanks for sharing gandalph. IMHO I feel that there is not enough post accident communications regardless of whether it is an RAA or HGFA issue. I am not suggesting speculative statements but I for one as a newcomer to WM would certainly like to hear more detail because accident reporting as you pointed out may assist us in the future from becoming such a statistic. It works well in GA I just don't seem to see the same level of open reporting in RA.

 

I am would be more than happy if someone can enlighten me otherwise but following such incidents and certainly as time goes by (and thorough investigation takes time) we seem to lose track of the outcomes.

 

 

[Oscar]

In the case of accident / incident reporting, it is very often the case that the 'result' of the incident is extremely easy to determine - but the 'cause' is not.

 

We have seen the results of someone, apparently expressing an expert opinion, shooting from the hip: in the case of the Runcorn incident, where the CEO of RAA - with about four day's experience of aviation - was reported as saying that ' this is one too many Jabiru engine failures and we are going to act on this'. We know the actual cause of the incident - but that received almost NO publicity.

 

I am reminded of a fatal of a Thorpe T-18 some years ago, where the preliminary investigation suggested an undetected medical emergency. In a way, that was correct - but it took a supplementary autopsy instigated by the expert investigator to determine that there was a toxic level of CO in the pilot's bloodstream, caused by a (quite small) crack in the fuselage undertray combined with a negative cabin pressure to suck CO into the cabin from directly in the path of the exhaust stacks. The pilot was likely comatose something like 20 minutes before impact, and dead maybe ten minutes before impact, by toxicology report. That information took something like 6 months to be produced.

 

As a direct result of the incredibly inept CASA action, we have turned to the situation where an engine failure is regarded as prima facie the most likely cause of a fatal accident. Any intelligent aviator knows that is NOT a direct causal link: propulsion is only ONE of the four forces acting on an aircraft to keep it flying / stop it flying. In fact, it is highly likely that the incidence of serious EFATO results is NOT the engine stopping, but either pilot error in choosing the wrong consequent action OR changed aerodynamics from the lack of prop. thrust on the flying characteristics turning a benign aircraft into a fatally aerodynamically flawed one in the circumstances. This is not the place or time to discuss candidates for that 'club'.

 

Pilot Error - in either flying outside the envelope or entering conditions that could not be handled - is a far more prevalent cause of accidents than mechanical malfunction.

 

In the case of the Yarrawonga accident, I believe that it is entirely necessary to consider a range of scenarios that may have been the cause. The prevailing conditions, the nature of and height at which any manouevers were carried out, MAY be contributing factors in the result. That may become clear in the future, and conjecture at this point is premature.

 

IF - and nowhere have I seen any commentary to either support or refute this - the passenger was carrying a broadcast-quality camera ( as shown in some pictures reproduced pertaining to the circumstances), then I am also reminded of the helicopter that crashed into Goldfields House in Circular Quay many years ago. Though the tail-rotor on that helicopter failed, that was a controllable eventuality - but it was shown that the camera had impacted the pilot's head due to the sudden swing of the helicopter as the tail-rotor failed, incapacitating him to take corrective action.

 

It NEEDS forensic-level investigation to determine the actual causes of incidents, in many cases.

 

 

[gandalph]

Agree Mark, I would like to think RAAus was writing the report prior to post 72 above....Mike

Is there any reason to think otherwise?

 

 

[Ultralights]

Pilot Error - in either flying outside the envelope or entering conditions that could not be handled - is a far more prevalent cause of accidents than mechanical malfunction.

even this assertion is now being questioned as the primary cause of those accidents listed as caused by "human error" what caused the error? fatigue? a lack of situational awareness? was the pilot on "autopilot" as it were, and simply didnt see the warnings? (as you do when driving a car, and realise you got somewhere, been driving for a bit, and dont remember any of it?) was it poor training? or poor ergonomic design that led to the error? (im researching this at uni at the moment)

 

 

[turboplanner]

Thanks for sharing gandalph. IMHO I feel that there is not enough post accident communications regardless of whether it is an RAA or HGFA issue. I am not suggesting speculative statements but I for one as a newcomer to WM would certainly like to hear more detail because accident reporting as you pointed out may assist us in the future from becoming such a statistic. It works well in GA I just don't seem to see the same level of open reporting in RA.I am would be more than happy if someone can enlighten me otherwise but following such incidents and certainly as time goes by (and thorough investigation takes time) we seem to lose track of the outcomes.

ATSB has legal protection in publicly declaring the facts and theory on what they found, but generally don't investigate RAA fatalities/injuries, although they do investigate those they choose. Having ATSB investigate all RAA crashes, or at least fatalities would be the best outcome, but cost appears to be the barrier.

Where ATSB don't investigate, State Police investigate, but that investigation is to prepare a brief for the State Coroner, who is looking for a cause of death, as against a cause of the accident, which we want. Police do not release their briefs, so we only get some answers and only after, sometimes years.

 

RAA provide assistance to State Police, and are bound by the Police policy, so we can't get accurate details from the members association.

 

In recent times RAA have provided oblique advice, with the intention of saving lives, and while that is very much appreciated by all of us, it's not without it's risk for the members because they and the association do not have the same immunity as ATSB. For that reason RAA can't just release sensitive information shortly after each crash, thus identifying the participants.

 

 

[slb]

Yarrawonga, VIC.......... died while flying a Rotax 912ULS powered weightshift microlight Airborne XT912 on Sunday 13 March 2016. RAAus attended the scene and are working with police as this investigation is still in the very early stages.

Just wanted to point out that Aiborne XT-912 are normally powered by the 80hp engine 912UL and not the 100hp ULS as stated in the email received from RAAus CEO.

 

 

[Downunder]

A death in a xt 912 in the US a few days ago too....

 

 

[storchy neil]

Just wanted to point out that Aiborne XT-912 are normally powered by the 80hp engine 912UL and not the 100hp ULS as stated in the email received from RAAus

 

thats a little:oops:neil

 

 

[gandalph]

Just wanted to point out that Aiborne XT-912 are normally powered by the 80hp engine 912UL and not the 100hp ULS as stated in the email received from RAAus thats a little:oops:neil

Could be a typo or it could be a mod to the aircraft. Is it critical to the preliminary incident report? Would we prefer to have waited a few more days to make sure the engine model was reported correctly?

 

What do the rest of the armchair experts who weren't at the scene think?????

 

FFS!

 

 

[Keenaviator]

When I started flying trikes in the late 80's we used to be able to brag about how safe they were, no control surfaces, everything triangulated so very strong, no fatalities, the safest aircraft! Up the performance and up comes the risk with it. Laurie

 

 

[Dinga]

ATSB has legal protection in publicly declaring the facts and theory on what they found, but generally don't investigate RAA fatalities/injuries, although they do investigate those they choose. Having ATSB investigate all RAA crashes, or at least fatalities would be the best outcome, but cost appears to be the barrier.Where ATSB don't investigate, State Police investigate, but that investigation is to prepare a brief for the State Coroner, who is looking for a cause of death, as against a cause of the accident, which we want. Police do not release their briefs, so we only get some answers and only after, sometimes years.

 

RAA provide assistance to State Police, and are bound by the Police policy, so we can't get accurate details from the members association.

 

In recent times RAA have provided oblique advice, with the intention of saving lives, and while that is very much appreciated by all of us, it's not without it's risk for the members because they and the association do not have the same immunity as ATSB. For that reason RAA can't just release sensitive information shortly after each crash, thus identifying the participants.

Hi Turboplanner and thanks because you have filled in the blanks for me. It seems to me that this is not necessarily working all that well and we could actually avoid some of the future incidents and accidents if we had better effective and open reporting.

 

 

[turboplanner]

One possibility I'm exploring is that RAA report its findings to ATSB, and ATSB with its protection publish them; the secondary benefit would be ATSB getting more direct statistics.

 

 

[alf jessup]

When I started flying trikes in the late 80's we used to be able to brag about how safe they were, no control surfaces, everything triangulated so very strong, no fatalities, the safest aircraft! Up the performance and up comes the risk with it. Laurie

Probably still are Laurie

 

Yes increased performance may have a minor detrimental effect on them but we as humans are still the weakest link

 

Trikes don't fly in to windmills, stall turning final or come down due to floating cross tube jamming due to all the camping gear stored inside the wing without the human help

 

Higher performance may give people the feeling of invincibility, overconfidence and belief that they can fly in more adverse weather conditions

 

Note: not saying that this was the cause of this recent event

 

 

[facthunter]

re the RAAus part.. We can be critical but it's unfair. RAAus are constrained as to their ability to release DATA as has been pointed out by Turboplanner. They don't even have the outright Authority to conduct an investigation. ATSB are the logical organisation but are cash strapped. They got involved in the windmill event at Old BAR where no one was injured ( and the windmill shouldn't have been where it was) and should get involved here where airworthiness considerations may be involved and two people died. Having a report and the event close together links the information and people benefit from the information directed to safer flying for all. Nev

 

 

[gandalph]

The windmill was actually a ferris wheel. Makes no difference - it still shouldn't have been there

 

 

[Keenaviator]

The windmill was actually a ferris wheel. Makes no difference - it still shouldn't have been there

I think the windmill was a wind mill and you shouldn't take off at the end of daylight hoping to find your way home. That's the one you are referring to Alf?

Laurie

 

 

[gandalph]

True KA.

 

I was responding to Nev's mention of the "windmill" at Old Bar. That's what happens when I don't include the quote from the post I was responding to - laziness on my part!

 

 

[facthunter]

You are right to correct me. Ferris wheel it is, though it did put the wind up some people. Nev