Engine Reliability

[Bluey]

Hi all;

 

From what I've read in this forum, it seems that the general consensus is that the 503 engine is probably more reliable that the 582 but four strokes are the best overall. I'd love to hear about your own experiences both positive and negaitive. How many of you flying these engined trikes have experienced engine failures? At what kind of altitude did they occur and how did you cope with them? If you know the cause of the failure, please let us know. Finally, have any of you experienced a failure moments after take off where your altitude was say less than 15m? What happened? I've heard (don"t know if this is true) that an engine failure this soon after lift off will probably result in a stall and a likely heavy landing.

 

Looking forward to reading your responces.

 

Regards: Giorgio.

 

 

[ZULU1]

582/503

 

Sir, I live on the East Coast of KZN, South Africa, very hot; humid and not unlike your Queensland climate. I have flown just about all trike engines made. I owned a 582, first engine crank "seized" at 190 hrs, shot, kaputt...bearings finished. Used the best oils, flown Mozambique, Swaziland, Kalahari, Botswana, Namibia in high temp/ humid conditions. The engine never ever went over 80 degrees C but I think the humidity got it..Then changed the crank, same story at 350hrs, enough was enough. I bought a HKS and apart from the slight power sacrifice, no worries at 300 hrs. I am not rich but a 912 would be very desirable.

 

I used to work in the KZN midlands and taught (also jollied) in a 503 with about 1200hrs (same crank), have flown them in the UK and also all over. Great motors, super tough and unfortunately discontinued.

 

So depends where you live and the climate, for me the 582 cost me plenty of money, lost flying time and useless effort. I speak as I find sir !!

 

Cheers Paul

 

 

[facthunter]

Crank seizures.

 

Just out of interest,ZULU1, were the oils you used synthetic? Regards Nev..

 

 

[ZULU1]

Oils

 

Nev, I originally hangared at Matsapha International in Swaziland and used Avgas as it was cheaper than mogas !! with mineral oil then moved to South Africa and flew with a Fuchs semi-synthetic, as you are aware synthetics will draw moisture. I then reverted back to Caltex mineral oils. We have had other 582s pop at also around 250 hrs on the coast. Without exception all our club (27 aeries) pre mix fuel and use a standard mineral oil. At the same site, same mix etc. the 503s will give a comfortable 600 hrs plus without opening.

 

I will start a new thread on the forum regarding TBOs and the new "CAA type 24 regulations" that become law in Jan 08 regarding engine overhauls and annual inspections on NTCA "non type certified aircraft" for info so you can all learn from our law makers..

 

Cheers Paul

 

 

[facthunter]

Crank life.

 

Thanks ZULU1. Using avgas helps the bottom end as it tends to evaporate LEAVING the oil. I have heard of one engine with over 1000 hrs (582)running on it. I'm certainly not saying that they will do that, or should be expected to. A premature failure (say under 200 hrs) should have a reason. Bad heat treatment, rust, cage failure. piece of metal, misalignment, not enough oil and so on. Perhaps the 582 is a bit more stressed than the 503. I know the small ends are the same size, in both. Possibly the crankpins are as well.

 

I've inspected 3 , (one 503 & 2 582's) in the last 3 months at 300 hrs and they all looked good. As far as an inspection can reveal, without dismantling the crank. You seem to be pretty much on top of it. I have a love-hate relationship with 2-strokes, but they are light and put out a fair amount of power.. Regards nev...

 

 

[Dieselten]

The engines that are most reliable and make TBO time are the engines that work hard and run often. 2-stroke or 4-stroke, this seems to hold true. A 582 that does more than 5 hours a week will likely go 800 hours before you tear it down and rebuild it. A hard-worked Jabiru 2200 will easily make the 1200 hours for the top-end overhaul. A 503 that runs regularly will see about the same service as the 582 before a rebuild.

 

Engines that run often are getting oil through them all the time, and oil is the life-blood of your engine. Oils helps keep crankshaft seals lubricated and plaible, porevents areas of corrosion forming and above all, regular use prevents bacterial buildup which causes corrosion on bearing surfaces etc due to waste products from microbial activity. Engines that are run only a few times a year are the ones that corrode and fail prematurely, simply because when they don't run they aren't getting any oil through them at all, and oil-films break down over time.

 

Avgas is a good fuel; very uniform, very repeatable and of consistently high quality. The problem is it has tetraethyl lead in it and this causes plugs to foul rapidly in 2-strokes as well as accelerating upper-cylinder wear. In Jabiru engines Avgas is the way to go, as it is for Lycomings and Continentals. But for Rotax 2-strokes 98-Octane Mogas is my preferred fuel, being very clean-burning and energy-efficient as well as readlily available. I have the first set of pistons and crankshaft from my 582 and I use these as training aids for students who wonder whats inside the "blue-Top" 582. Running on 98-OCtane mogas, there is hardly any carbon at all on the piston-crowns, and in fact certain areas of the crown are bare aluminium. This is "as-removed", with no cleaning for effect. I used Penrite TS40C exclusively in my 582...a very good oil but now discontinued. There are quite a few 2-stroke oils that are suitable for the Rotax 2-strokes. Choose one and stick with it.

 

The right oil for your engine is critical! If your engine runs more than 6-8 hours a week, then by all means use synthetics. Regular use will boil off any absorbed moisture in your oil, and the lubrication properties of synthetics are very high, far superior to mineral oils. However, if your engine does fewer than 5 hours a week, stick to standard mineral oils which don't absorb moisture. Just use a good oil and make sure it is rated for your engine, be it 2-stroke of 4-stroke.

 

Believe it or not, but the engine manufacturer actually does know best what works in his engine! For example if Jabiru say to use a non-compounded oil for the running-in period, then change to a compounded aircraft engine oil when the engine is fully run-in, believe them! They tear down enough engines to see what happens when someone decides he knows more about engines that the manufacturer and uses an oil that is unsuitable.

 

Engines need to run! If you are unable to fly for any extended period, a regime of regular ground-running to heat up the engine and circulate the oil won't do any harm. Remember, oil sitting in the sump isn't lubricating anything, nor is oil sitting dissolved in fuel in the fuel tank. To lubricate, the oil needs to be circulating around in a running engine, irrespective of how it actually gets there!

 

Engines, like most other mechanical things, as only as reliable as the way they are run and the maintenance they receive. Another point to remember is your engine is a consumable device. It has a finite lifetime, is designed to work and work hard for that rated time, and in fact needs to work hard to obtain best performance and longevity in service. When its time has come, it is overhauled and the clock begins again. No engine is designed or built to last forever, but with due care most engines can be made to last to their TBO time, by which time they owe you very little.

 

 

[Arnaud]

So the new 503 I just purchased (on a Redback trike) will be discontinued soon...

 

Doesn't worry me too much as one day I'll be discontinued too !

 

Apart from the TBO bit, not much difference between a two stroke and the human body: feed it proper food, don't be afraid to work it hard and you're likely to get extra mileage.

 

Mind the bus though !

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

I believe Rotax have committed to 447 / 503 spares being available for 10 years from when manufacture stops so theres no need to panic just yet ;-)

 

Cheers

 

John

 

PS Excellent post DieselTen

 

 

[ZULU1]

582

 

Hiya

 

As a matter of personal interest, i phoned the new owner of my old 582 and it is located inland (Pretoria), completed 300 trouble free hours with zero hassles. Motor has TT of about 700 hrs now, uses mineral oil. Even our school planes which run daily only achieve about 450hrs on a 582.

 

Nothing wrong with a 503 !!

 

Cheers Paul

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Has anyone been asked Airborne what they plan to do when the 582 is discontinued?

 

It may trigger the end of production of the Edge-X based trikes - Redback, Outback & Classic.

 

OR, it may even drive Airborne to certifyt he Edge-X base with the HKS-700E engine, or God Forbid a h-h-h Hirth. (Just passed on prejudice, no experience with Hirths).

 

But certainly I think Airborne will at the very least have to consider some replacement engine for the XT-582's already out there as their market would most likely suffer if they only sold 912's.

 

Although I've heard 75% of their production is 912's these days, a possible 25% loss of sales is not insignificant.

 

Rgds,

 

Glen

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

I believe its only 447 and 503 production which is ending in the next couple of years. Hopefully the 582 will be continue for a long time yet.