ATC Question Thread

[Flying Kiwi]

Hi Guys,

 

You've got flight following, and nearing you destination ATC say ABC no reported IFR traffic for you're descent (or something along those lines) is it a case of acknowledging with you callsign or is there more to it in relation to a read back?

 

Cheers

 

 

[DrZoos]

 

If your using ATC you should follow procedures, but they are pretty helpful and wont jump on you if you dont know the exact protocols

 

 

[ben87r]

If IFR "ABC" would be sufficient, I don't image it would be different for VFR.

 

I

 

 

[ian00798]

Ben 87 is correct. In fact it's actually a bit annoying if you read back something like copied traffic is we give no reported IFR traffic. Just callsign is sufficient.

 

 

[Flying Kiwi]

Hi Guys,

 

For a departure out of Tamworth, when you request taxi clearance are you also requesting airways clearance even though they also control C Class, would they know that from your flight plan that you will be climbing into C Class??

 

Cheers

 

 

[ian00798]

They would know you are climbing into class c from your flight plan, however I would request taxi and airways clearance. They won't climb you into class c without a clearance though.

 

 

[aplund]

Does this stuff about VFR flight plans apply to Australia:

 

 

One thing I still get lost with is how the system works. I find that the VFRG and AIP don't help much with understanding what happens in the ATC system. I've been to Archerfield tower once, and asked a few questions, but time was limited and it was when I was pretty new to the whole thing. I've been wanting to go to one of the BN Centre pilot evenings, but the dates haven't worked out for me as of yet (and the December one wont either, unfortunately).

 

Does anyone have any links to information about how things happen behind the scenes (or radio in this case)?

 

 

[Flying Kiwi]

Hi Guys

 

What would be the realistic chance of getting Class C clearance say direct Lismore to Sunshine Coast at A085, so basically over the top of Brisbane.

 

Not a hope in hell? Don't even try just take the coastal route??

 

And going the other way into Bankstown would they entertain something like A065 following the VFR route to Prospect or just to much effort.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Pearo]

Hi GuysWhat would be the realistic chance of getting Class C clearance say direct Lismore to Sunshine Coast at A085, so basically over the top of Brisbane.

 

Not a hope in hell? Don't even try just take the coastal route??

 

And going the other way into Bankstown would they entertain something like A065 following the VFR route to Prospect or just to much effort.

 

Cheers

I am going to pipe up here and say 'depends on traffic'. Some of us are so used to rejection we dont bother anymore! However, I was flying back from Kooralybn recently with a bunch of people and as I was battling the thermals via Archerfield when one of my fellow pilot friends tried for clearance direct and got it!! Always worth a try, sometime you get clearance, most times you dont! I have only managed it once in my short career!

 

 

[shags_j]

I am going to pipe up here and say 'depends on traffic'. Some of us are so used to rejection we dont bother anymore! However, I was flying back from Kooralybn recently with a bunch of people and as I was battling the thermals via Archerfield when one of my fellow pilot friends tried for clearance direct and got it!! Always worth a try, sometime you get clearance, most times you dont! I have only managed it once in my short career!

Absolutely depends on traffic. When jets are being sequenced into Sydney, Gold Coast or Brisbane there just isn't physical space to put a slow flyer in the middle of it all.

 

APLUND: Are there any specifics about how it works that you would like to know? Plenty on here that will help you out if we can. Unfortunately there just isn't the ability to bring visitors in atm due to the security levels.

 

 

[shags_j]

Does this stuff about VFR flight plans apply to Australia:

 

If I file a VFR flight plan will ATC know my route?

 

- Yes but with some caveats

 

1. you are still flying the route that was submitted in the flight plan
    
    
   
2. We don't always have automatic access to your flight plan. Usually we have to request it from the FDC's and then we can access it.
    
    
   
3. It can be tough to find Jabiru 1234's flight plan if it is listed as say JAB1234, or maybe 241234 etc. Helps if you let us know what you filed as the flight id.
    
    
   

 

 

If you call us 10nm before CTA and say you have a plan, sometimes it just may not be long enough. As per the above it can take a bit of time to get the plan so don't leave it to the last minute to request code and clearance.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

[dsam]

If I file a VFR flight plan will ATC know my route?- Yes but with some caveats

 

1. you are still flying the route that was submitted in the flight plan
    
    
   
2. We don't always have automatic access to your flight plan. Usually we have to request it from the FDC's and then we can access it.
    
    
   
3. It can be tough to find Jabiru 1234's flight plan if it is listed as say JAB1234, or maybe 241234 etc. Helps if you let us know what you filed as the flight id.
    
    
   

 

 

If you call us 10nm before CTA and say you have a plan, sometimes it just may not be long enough. As per the above it can take a bit of time to get the plan so don't leave it to the last minute to request code and clearance.

 

Hope this helps.

On a related matter to this, my understanding is that firstly, one's Mode S (extended squitter) transponder must have the correct unique "hex code" for your specific aircraft, and that the transponder's broadcast "tail number" should be R1234 for all RA-Aus aircraft.

 

For a submitted flight plan, my understanding is that the Flight ID should also be R1234 (the same as the transponder's broadcast "tail number".

 

As well, in the submitted flight plan, the correct ICAO "aircraft type" should be stated - in my case it is EFOX (for Eurofox).

 

Can anyone confirm this is all correct?

 

 

[shags_j]

I have actually asked around about this and cant get a reply from anyone. Possibly the briefing office may know but we don't deal with them directly

 

 

[dsam]

I have actually asked around about this and cant get a reply from anyone. Possibly the briefing office may know but we don't deal with them directly

Shags, I certainly hope someone at your end knows (and communicates down the line) the correct protocols.

 

Many on this forum would know that RA-Aus has recently submitted to CASA their formal request for CTA access (for members wishing to train and equip for this new endorsement - like myself). One would hope that the new RA-Aus training program comprehensively details the appropriate flight plan submission protocols specifically for RA-Aus pilots to use.

 

With RA-Aus soon to be added into the CTA traffic mix, they must make sure it is implemented in a way that doesn't make things difficult or troublesome for ATC/airservices at the coalface.

 

I for one, want to be absolutely correct with all transmitted & submitted protocols right from the start, so as to not give anyone a chance to criticise us RA-Aus pilots in CTA.

 

 

[KRviator]

When I was programming my new transponder late last year, I spoke to the Airservices ADS-B guru regarding the R8519 vs 198519 and his advice was to use the full registration - exactly as would appear on your flight notification. Thats what I have now and have not had an issue so far.

 

 

[dsam]

When I was programming my new transponder late last year, I spoke to the Airservices ADS-B guru regarding the R8519 vs 198519 and his advice was to use the full registration - exactly as would appear on your flight notification. Thats what I have now and have not had an issue so far.

Thanks KRviator,

 

So.... how do we reconcile that guru's recommendation with this advice (citing Airservices advice for R1234). I remain concerned that we ought to get this right from the start, and am not sure that is happening right now.

 

1-standard-letter-modes-xpdr-programming-2015-2.pdf

 

1-standard-letter-modes-xpdr-programming-2015-2.pdf

 

1-standard-letter-modes-xpdr-programming-2015-2.pdf

[shags_j]

As far as us gettting it to link to a flight plan tjen yeah if your ident matches your flightid it links easily. I'll find out what the exact thing should be though

 

 

[dsam]

When I was programming my new transponder late last year, I spoke to the Airservices ADS-B guru regarding the R8519 vs 198519 and his advice was to use the full registration - exactly as would appear on your flight notification. Thats what I have now and have not had an issue so far.

KRviator, perhaps that guru was only considering non - 24 registered RA-Aus aircraft that are remaining only in class G airspace (yours being 19 rego) where this transponder "extended squitter" info would be less critical to get right.

 

I think the regulations (as they now stand pre - part 149 rules) prohibit all but factory built aircraft, with certificated engines in class C & over built up areas (ie. only some 24 registered aircraft depending on engine and avionics).

 

I might guess that for the more critical CTA, the approved transponder hex code & tail number, must agree with the lodged flight plan "Flight ID". I hope all organisations manage to "get on the same page" with this!

 

 

[coljones]

RAA planes are, if suitably equipped, able to request and be given clearance to fly into and through controlled airspace. The PIC must have a CTA end. This means that the PIC needs 3 qualifying bits of paper. An RAA Cert for the plane in question, a CASA License AND a CASA CTA Endo. This is the current law.

 

I am not sure where some of those on these forums get off claiming that 1. You can't currently fly RAA through CTA, 2. The world as we know it will somehow vanish if RAA Certificate holders are given the opportunity to qualify for a CTA Endorsement without the need to hold CASA Licence.

 

 

[dsam]

Easy there colones... I'm on your side of this discussion, I would think. My Eurofox has been legally in and out of controlled airspace, but since my RA-Aus pilot certificate does not yet allow a CTA endorsement, I was forced to have a CASA PPL (+ RAA cert) in the left seat, as you've pointed out.

 

My discussion above relates mainly to ensuring transponders in RA-Aus aircraft broadcast the correct hex code, and a "tail number" that agrees with lodged flight plans, and also that the authorities involved agree consistently on those protocols, specifically where RA-Aus aircraft are involved.

 

Posts 188 and 190 would indicate some inconsistencies and uncertainty exists in transponder and flight ID protocols.

 

 

[Flying Kiwi]

Hi

 

When you watch the Airservices YouTube video for lodging a SAR time he says for RAAus in Aircraft ID use only the last 4 digits of rego.

 

So I'll make the assumption that when filing a flight plan the same would apply using the last 4 digits for the Aircraft ID

 

Also correct me if I'm wrong but you don't need Mode S to enter controlled airspace, Mode C is still fine which won't have a hex code

 

 

 

[coljones]

Easy there colones... I'm on your side of this discussion, I would think. My Eurofox has been legally in and out of controlled airspace, but since my RA-Aus pilot certificate does not yet allow a CTA endorsement, I was forced to have a CASA PPL (+ RAA cert) in the left seat, as you've pointed out.My discussion above relates mainly to ensuring transponders in RA-Aus aircraft broadcast the correct hex code, and a "tail number" that agrees with lodged flight plans, and also that the authorities involved agree consistently on those protocols, specifically where RA-Aus aircraft are involved.

 

Posts 188 and 190 would indicate some inconsistencies and uncertainty exists in transponder and flight ID protocols.

No, it wasn't your comments. I understood where you were heading.

 

 

[KRviator]

Thanks KRviator,So.... how do we reconcile that guru's recommendation with this advice (citing Airservices advice for R1234). I remain concerned that we ought to get this right from the start, and am not sure that is happening right now.

 

KRviator, perhaps that guru was only considering non - 24 registered RA-Aus aircraft that are remaining only in class G airspace (yours being 19 rego) where this transponder "extended squitter" info would be less critical to get right.I think the regulations (as they now stand pre - part 149 rules) prohibit all but factory built aircraft, with certificated engines in class C & over built up areas (ie. only some 24 registered aircraft depending on engine and avionics).

 

I might guess that for the more critical CTA, the approved transponder hex code & tail number, must agree with the lodged flight plan "Flight ID". I hope all organisations manage to "get on the same page" with this!

I specifically quoted and queried the notice RAAus has put out regarding the Rxxxx, and he had never heard of such a request from AirServices, and IIRC, he said he was pretty close to the top of the tree for this kind of stuff.The only thing I can think of as to why he advised against it, was if you have a 19, 10 and 24 registered aircraft with 1234 as their rego, the system will get confused with two R1234's airborne at the same time - in the same vein as you must go to SBY on your transponder prior to changing the code lest you briefly return a code assigned to Air Canada climbing out of Warnervale!

 

 

[dsam]

I've just emailed RA-Aus for clarification of ADS-B transponder "tail number" vs. NAIPS "flight ID" protocol, vs. ATC airborne clearances & linking with lodged plans.

 

If I get a coherent explanation & clarification of protocols, I'll post it here too.

 

 

[Yenn]

In a similar vein RAAus say our ident should be for example thirty six, forty four, whereas I laways say three, six, four, four. I have never been queried by centre about this and I am not sure who made up the RAAus method and when. I am sure my method is safer than RAAuss and easier to interpret.