Plane crashes at Redcliffe in North Brisbane

[SSCBD]

We used the incentive program back in the Non Political Correct days, and the student was fined with a beer a bounce, and a slab for any bounce over four feet. Attempted murder of an instructor eg trying to land 20ft high and on the stall etc was a pub.

 

All instructors never paid for a beer ever. But then again common sense and fun were allowed.

 

Would not happen these days would it.

 

What a sad time we live in where its more exciting for some people to fill in paperwork or point fingers than actually fly.

 

 

[pylon500]

Not sure about instructors and free beers (and it's not just that I'm a non drinker), but any bad flying by a student/early solo, really has to be some sort of reflection on the instructors abilities.

 

Yes, I take some of the blame for a student wrecking my Lightwing....

 

 

[Nightmare]

This bloke should have done some of your training!

I wonder why he was forcing the nose down like he was? We are all taught to keep the nose wheel off the tarmac for as long as possible. His initial touchdown looked ok, he touched down on the mains, there was a bit of float happening, which makes me think he came in a little too fast, due to a low or unstable approach. Yes, he definitely should've gone around.

 

 

[poteroo]

I wonder why he was forcing the nose down like he was?

Impatience - an unfortunate trait evident in todays drivers and pilots. IMHO, it's the fundamental cause of most landing accidents. happy days,

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

yeah, the beer economy was around when I learnt to fly.. bounce was a stubby, so was hitting the taxy lights with the nose wheel.. Even traffic controllers were in on it when you stuffed up at a particular aerodrome a slab was the order of the day at the base of the control tower... ahh, so long ago..

 

 

[red750]

Talking about bouncy landings, there are a few in this video of wild crosswind landings from NZ. You have possibly seen this video, from 2011, but it's still worth a look, particularly for some of the newbies here. Some look like they're 30deg to the runway when they touch down.

 

 

 

[Pearo]

I had a cracker of a bounce when doing my MPPC endorsement in the 182, not aircraft damaging bad, but embarrassing bad. But I was taught in that situation to always go around rather than save it, so without thinking I just powered up and went around. The instructor at the time said I could have saved it, but applauded me from going around.

 

The day I achieved that endorsement, as I was waiting to enter the runway, we observed a student from another school bounce the worse I have ever seen. He tried to do a go around but pitched up so much that the plane started entering a stall. Thankfully, he pitched down again to prevent the stall, but I thought I was going to see a crash that day. If you have studied at bob tait, you know that break times are spent observing landings on rwy 07 at redcliffe, so you get to see all the good, bad and ugly.

 

Redcliffe is not very forgiving if you bugger it up. In the summer months its even worse with the regular 15-20kt crosswinds.

 

 

[WayneL]

Redcliffe is not very forgiving if you bugger it up. In the summer months its even worse with the regular 15-20kt crosswinds.

I was doing some circuits with an instructor off 07 one day with the wind socks showing a good 10kts straight down the runway but we were experiencing what felt like a tailwind on turning final and I was have some trouble keeping the correct decent profile til short final then all seemed fine. On the third circuit we noticed smoke from a backyard burn rising toward the North East as we turned final, a few seconds later the airspeed started to increase quickly and I responded by raising the nose, It then briefly looked like we were going to overshoot the aiming point before passing thought the updraft and moving into the sea breeze headwind. Crazy conditions where the two opposing air flows meet and caused the updraft on final. I think that being right beside the water of the bay caused the land and sea breezes to 'fight it' out!

 

Wayne

 

 

[DGL Fox]

I was doing some circuits with an instructor off 07 one day with the wind socks showing a good 10kts straight down the runway but we were experiencing what felt like a tailwind on turning final and I was have some trouble keeping the correct decent profile til short final then all seemed fine. On the third circuit we noticed smoke from a backyard burn rising toward the North East as we turned final, a few seconds later the airspeed started to increase quickly and I responded by raising the nose, It then briefly looked like we were going to overshoot the aiming point before passing thought the updraft and moving into the sea breeze headwind. Crazy conditions where the two opposing air flows meet and caused the updraft on final. I think that being right beside the water of the bay caused the land and sea breezes to 'fight it' out!Wayne

I was doing some solo circuits today at YRED and I using 07, the wind was straight down the runway at about 5 kts or so and a few big clouds around over the airfield but in general a great day, as I took off and got to around 500ft it started getting a bit bumpy and once I turned downwind, I started getting uplift under the cloud because on one circuit I got lifted around 400ft and a few seconds later dropped me back down to roughly circuit height, I thought wow that was exciting, then on final as anyone that has flown at Redcliffe I got a heap of sink over the mudflats and then lift over the mangroves on short final and then over the fence it settled down again.

 

All in all it was a fun circuit session at Redcliffe, it certainly keeps you on your toes...loved it... moving onto engine failures etc on Saturday morning in preparation to do my area solos....lots of fun...

 

David

 

 

[Pearo]

Dont trust the windsock at YRED, it lies. The secondary windsock was tangled up for a while too, so be cautions about it. Being a sailor of 40 years, I am used to the local surface wind condititions in the area, but since I began flying I have realised that there can be a 180 degree windshift from ground to 1000'. I have also realised that the South Easter will get funneled through the hangers and affect your landing at around your touch down point if you are not doing shortfields. This is one reason I always try to do shortfield landings at YRED.

 

I posted this here before, but worth posting again. Check the smoke v windsock.

 

 

 

[BLA82]

I only have one question about that video WHY? Why would you continue flying in those conditions? I'm sure and please correct me if I'm wrong but those conditions surely would be close if not behind the recommended maximum crosswind for those aircraft. The only thing more stupid was the commentary from that X jet muppet but you can't expect much from him:blah blah:

 

 

[SSCBD]

BLAR82 - I like your outlook on life on your post -

 

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, joystick in one hand, scotch in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!""

 

To bad they invented Human Factors and PC.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Pearo you are spot on and it isn't a phenomenon that is unique to YRED.

 

I often find here at home that I can take off with a 5-10 knot wind on the nose and even at 500 feet the wind can be 5-10 in the opposite direction, it is not always (probably around 1 in 5 flights) and isn't limited to a wind from a certain direction. It has always fascinated me and I find on most gentle wind days (<or=15knots) that you can find a tailwind no matter which way you are heading if you take the time to feel out different altitudes.

 

I guess being in a slow plane I notice every knot of wind on long trips. As much as we shouldn't rely on iPads and gps's they are a beautiful tool for getting an instant idea of the affect of the wind on your groundspeed. I find myself, when climbing at the start of a trip, taking note of the different headwind/tailwind component every couple of hundred feet and that gives me a fairly good picture of the wind at different alts which can be helpful for your return trip as well if it is going to be a relatively quick turn around.

 

It is something else that we should be very aware of when flying cross country though because if you pick out your forced landing direction based on winds aloft without checking ground level queues you could end up with a very nasty surprise at a not so nice time.

 

 

[Pearo]

Pearo you are spot on and it isn't a phenomenon that is unique to YRED.I often find here at home that I can take off with a 5-10 knot wind on the nose and even at 500 feet the wind can be 5-10 in the opposite direction, it is not always (probably around 1 in 5 flights) and isn't limited to a wind from a certain direction. It has always fascinated me and I find on most gentle wind days (<or=15knots) that you can find a tailwind no matter which way you are heading if you take the time to feel out different altitudes.

 

I guess being in a slow plane I notice every knot of wind on long trips. As much as we shouldn't rely on iPads and gps's they are a beautiful tool for getting an instant idea of the affect of the wind on your groundspeed. I find myself, when climbing at the start of a trip, taking note of the different headwind/tailwind component every couple of hundred feet and that gives me a fairly good picture of the wind at different alts which can be helpful for your return trip as well if it is going to be a relatively quick turn around.

 

It is something else that we should be very aware of when flying cross country though because if you pick out your forced landing direction based on winds aloft without checking ground level queues you could end up with a very nasty surprise at a not so nice time.

I have a huge advantage over most pilots, and that is I have spend the best part of my life chasing optimum wind conditions for racing. I can identify local features that modify wind patterns. I am always looking at wind gusts and directions on water, I look at smoke, cloud, squalls, etc. The stuff you dont expect on the ground at your local airstrip, is stuff I am exploiting when sailing!

 

But, the part I am still learning, is when you transition from the ground to 100ft. You pick the surface conditions at YRED at ground level on a shitty day, take off and find the stall horn once you 5oft off the ground. The wind just shifts around everywhere and I still cannot figure it out. People are scared of landing in a solid crosswind, I often think taking off is harder. I can go around on landing and figure out the conditions, but taking off I only have one chance!

 

 

[SSCBD]

Oh come on guys basic 101 - If you expect wind shifts and gusts etc stick the nose down in ground effect on takeoff and pick up some speed then climb out at 5 or 10 kts higher than normal.

 

Same on landing use the runway length, no points for crashing in the first 10 ft. So add 10kts or so on final and hold the wheels off the runway around 3 ft and let the speed bleed off.

 

Really should not be going over this and it should have been covered in training. A lot of strips have this problem.

 

Also people scared of landing in a solid crosswind really again, common sense get and instructor and rack some hours in crosswinds otherwise I would call it unsafe for you to fly right?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Oh come on guys basic 101 - If you expect wind shifts and gusts etc stick the nose down in ground effect on takeoff and pick up some speed then climb out at 5 or 10 kts higher than normal.Same on landing use the runway length, no points for crashing in the first 10 ft. So add 10kts or so on final and hold the wheels off the runway around 3 ft and let the speed bleed off.

Really should not be going over this and it should have been covered in training. A lot of strips have this problem.

 

Also people scared of landing in a solid crosswind really again, common sense get and instructor and rack some hours in crosswinds otherwise I would call it unsafe for you to fly right?

What aircraft do you fly SSCBD? A

 

 

[SSCBD]

Just over the last 6 months here Raa Stuff - Aerofox - Tecnam RG - Sling2 - Foxbat, before that lightwing, drifter, thruster, plus float, plus etc etc.

 

Was in Europe last year and flew Vl3, Sting, Sport Crusier.

 

Then GA..

 

But wanting the Risen new in europe - its a cut cat, for point A to B. very nice but very expensive and want to see at least 10 roll off the line first.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Thanks, that lends weight to what you were saying.

 

(I thought you might have just flown GA, which are easier to handle in adverse wind conditions)

 

 

[Nightmare]

Oh come on guys basic 101 - If you expect wind shifts and gusts etc stick the nose down in ground effect on takeoff and pick up some speed then climb out at 5 or 10 kts higher than normal.Same on landing use the runway length, no points for crashing in the first 10 ft. So add 10kts or so on final and hold the wheels off the runway around 3 ft and let the speed bleed off.

Really should not be going over this and it should have been covered in training. A lot of strips have this problem.

 

Also people scared of landing in a solid crosswind really again, common sense get and instructor and rack some hours in crosswinds otherwise I would call it unsafe for you to fly right?

I was about to write a very similar post, especially about staying in the ground effect on takeoff, if you're getting a stall warning, lower the nose and build more speed. In the manuals, this is called a short field takeoff. I prefer to do every takeoff like this, it is very kind to your undercarriage. Crosswind landings? I love them, that's just fun for me. My very first time I flew after getting my certificate, I was challenged with 12kt crosswinds, gusting at times to 18kts. The plane is only rated to 14kts. I made the next one a full stop when I found out about how strong it was gusting, via radio from my instructor who was watching from the ground. I prefer the wing down method, but I guess I should put some practice in on the crab method if I ever get to fly low wing aircraft.

[Pearo]

Oh come on guys basic 101 - If you expect wind shifts and gusts etc stick the nose down in ground effect on takeoff and pick up some speed then climb out at 5 or 10 kts higher than normal.Same on landing use the runway length, no points for crashing in the first 10 ft. So add 10kts or so on final and hold the wheels off the runway around 3 ft and let the speed bleed off.

Really should not be going over this and it should have been covered in training. A lot of strips have this problem.

 

Also people scared of landing in a solid crosswind really again, common sense get and instructor and rack some hours in crosswinds otherwise I would call it unsafe for you to fly right?

Thanks for the advice, but flying out of redcliffe you have no choice but to know how to fly in high gusting crosswinds because thats what you get a good half or more of the year.

 

Adding 10knots to a 172 to landing speed is just as dangerous as removing 10 knots. adding 10 knots in a 172 will see you landing at 75knots, which is a good way to use up most of the runway floating. Its this kind of nonsense advice that ends up in the results that started this thread. Read the POH, that is the correct advice on landing in crosswinds.

 

 

[SSCBD]

Thanks for the advice, but flying out of redcliffe you have no choice but to know how to fly in high gusting crosswinds because thats what you get a good half or more of the year.Adding 10knots to a 172 to landing speed is just as dangerous as removing 10 knots. adding 10 knots in a 172 will see you landing at 75knots, which is a good way to use up most of the runway floating. Its this kind of nonsense advice that ends up in the results that started this thread. Read the POH, that is the correct advice on landing in crosswinds.

Pearo this is a RAA forum not GA,

 

Stop trying to have a ego and puff up with GA knowledge in front of people that don't fly GA.

 

The C172 has AROUND 1,100 kg max take off.

 

I was talking about RAA aircraft with a MTOW of up to 600kg ish most a lot lighter. Its your damm crossing of types and GA weight that cause confusion with RAA pilots and what I said.

 

However, What is said was correct in the sense for RAA aircraft with runway length available, use it. YRED and has one runway designated 07/25 which measures 853 m.

 

Any RAA aircraft, if you read my post correctly is fine for an extra 10kts for wind shifts and gusts on final with reversing windsocks etc as we don't have the INERTIA like GA.

 

The next sentence was for crosswinds -

 

Quote "Also people scared of landing in a solid crosswind really again, common sense get and instructor and rack some hours in crosswinds otherwise I would call it unsafe for you to fly right?" - which is again correct with common sense which is severely lacking on this site at times.

 

You must put the argument in context of RAA aircraft and not go off on a tangent to GA.

 

 

[M61A1]

I was taught to add half the wind speed for gusts and shear, and a quick look around the interwebs tells me that this is common practice. If you have some big gusts or bad shear or gradient as Redcliffe apparently does, 10 kts may be close to the mark. There have been many times I have made an approach with 10-12 kts extra and lost all of it as I pass through the gradient. Only once have I neglected to add some airspeed for the gradient, and I won't forget again.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Don't get too Irate SSCBD, pearo is aloud to post his opinions and as far as I know this forum is for recreational flyers which can and most certainly does include both RAA aircraft as well as VH registered.

 

For me personally if it is rough air my takeoff is still the same but I do add around five knots to my speed on finals (50 instead of 45).

 

Care does need to be taken landing quicker though so flap extension speeds are not exceeded.

 

Also it is surprising how many people cruise in rough air at a speed that exceeds the rough air penetration speed of their particular aircraft. In my hornet that is 70knots but I find that too uncomfy and stick to 60 when rough. an extra 10 knots for me on takeoff would put me up on my rough air speed and would have me over my flap extension speed (I use a smidge of flap on takeoff) so obviously make sure you know the numbers for whatever aircraft it is you fly (this paragraph isn't for you SSCBD, I am getting a bit tired and am just following my train of thought)

 

 

[SSCBD]

Don't get too Irate SSCBD, pearo is aloud to post his opinions and as far as I know this forum is for recreational flyers which can and most certainly does include both RAA aircraft as well as VH registered.For me personally if it is rough air my takeoff is still the same but I do add around five knots to my speed on finals (50 instead of 45).

 

Care does need to be taken landing quicker though so flap extension speeds are not exceeded.

 

Also it is surprising how many people cruise in rough air at a speed that exceeds the rough air penetration speed of their particular aircraft. In my hornet that is 70knots but I find that too uncomfy and stick to 60 when rough. an extra 10 knots for me on takeoff would put me up on my rough air speed and would have me over my flap extension speed (I use a smidge of flap on takeoff) so obviously make sure you know the numbers for whatever aircraft it is you fly (this paragraph isn't for you SSCBD, I am getting a bit tired and am just following my train of thought)

Hi SDQDI - That's fine and agree, but have said common sense has to be used as well.

 

Here is the problem. We need to talk oranges or apples.

 

RAA at 600kg max or GA with whatever kg depending on type. Because we do fly them differently and also for different conditions.

 

I agree with you on speeds and flaps and retrac landing gear on RAA aircraft. This provides further limitations with speed, but you also should be trained for this at a higher level to fly these aircraft including turbulence penetration speeds and use of trickle power as well etc.

 

However, the more vulnerable aircraft and pilots are the lighter rag wing types, drifter thruster etc or none flap lightwing types (not being rude guys) that have penetration problems in gusts and bad weather because they are very light.

 

So WHAT I am saying is we need to identify the aircraft to have all the facts to specifically answer questions or posts properly and keep the low time guys in the loop with best answers from those who have the experience and or training in those types. To keep them safe and if not able to answer simple questions refer them to CFI to keep them and possible a non pilot pax safe.

 

 

[Pearo]

SSCBD, sorry, my apologies. Thought this thread was about a 172 that crashed at Redcliffe.