Aircraft down Lancefield Vic

[Ultralights]

stall practice would be at 3000' or higher, surely? Plenty of time to recover. Brumbys are said to have docile stall characteristics, and not enter a flat spin? Especially with an instructor on board, who would be adept at stall recovery. Stall practice gone wrong doesn't seem likely.

Sadly, experience in hours doesn't necessarily mean experience with unusual attitudes such as with things like spins.. but more importantly is the unknown factor of the student? did the student panic at the stall, and forcibly manipulate the controls? was the aircraft in a rear CoG configuration making entry into a spin more likely from a stall and wing drop? did the passenger freeze preventing the instructor from making an effective recovery?

 

I have personally seen a student, overcome the controls of an instructor and cause an accident, when landing, the aircraft bounced, the instructor took over, but the student, being a quite well built fellow, and the instructor being a petite woman, pushed the stick full forward and held it there until impact. the aircraft substantially damaged, but both got out uninjured.

 

 

[Teckair]

Several times in the past I have had students that froze on the controls, at the time I was strong enough to over power them but if not there would have been a problem. People say you have hit them to snap them out of it but I am not sure how practical that would be, you could end up with a punch up in the cockpit.

 

 

[Ultralights]

Several times in the past I have had students that froze on the controls, at the time I was strong enough to over power them but if not there would have been a problem. People say you have hit them to snap them out of it but I am not sure how practical that would be, you could end up with a punch up in the cockpit.

i was taught a quick backhand to the nose, will get the person, to release their grip, and hold their nose. never had to do it though

 

 

[fly_tornado]

My condolences to both pilots friends and families.

 

I wonder why the chute didn't deploy?

 

 

[shafs64]

A person who has flown the aircraft has confirmed it didn't have one.

 

 

[biggles]

This accident bears a striking resemblance to the Piper Sport accident that killed an RAAus instructor and his student on 19/3/2012 , some 14 miles NW of Bundaberg . Doing stall recovery at the time and appeared to get into a flat spin , pancaking into cane field with little or no horizontal flight component . Unfortunately the Qld Coroner exercised his right to limit access of his/her findings to family members ..... Bob

 

 

[fatmal]

A person who has flown the aircraft has confirmed it didn't have one.

If you're thinking of my post above, it was a long time since I flew, or even looked at, Brumby 7322 and my memory of whether a chute was fitted shouldn't be taken as gospel.

 

did the passenger freeze preventing the instructor from making an effective recovery?

The 'student' was doing a GA to RAA conversion, so in my view would be unlikely to have frozen on the controls. While Terry was quite elderly, I'm sure that given the right motivation he could have taken over control.

 

Sadly, like many accidents, we may never know what transpired in the cockpit. Hopefully we find out, so lessons can be learned by all of us.

 

mal

 

 

[Oscar]

stall practice would be at 3000' or higher, surely? Plenty of time to recover. Brumbys are said to have docile stall characteristics, and not enter a flat spin? Especially with an instructor on board, who would be adept at stall recovery. Stall practice gone wrong doesn't seem likely.

From a report to the Flight Test Society of Australia Symposium, 2009: on flight testing of the initial Brumby LSA:

 

During one spin sortie, when the CG was too far aft, the aircraft entered a stabilised spin, which could not be corrected by application of various combinations of flight and power controls. The chute was deployed at the soft floor and this provided an immediate positive influence on yaw and roll motion. The influence was progressive and within less that 180 [degrees] of rotation the aircraft had adopted a straight flight path in a steep nose down attitude. Following release of the chute, recovery was very simple.

 

The test pilot concerned was Keith Engelsman, co-author of the paper presented, and quite possibly Australia's top test pilot for many years. If Keith Engelsman cannot recover an aircraft from a spin, it is a pretty good bet that it simply cannot be done. I am not aware of what action Brumby may have taken as a result, since it did pass the ASTM 'one turn' requirement when within c/g range.

 

This particular aircraft was originally delivered with a Rotax 914, and was later changed to a 912s, which is something like 12 kgs lighter installed weight. Presumably, any additional ballast that may have been added over the original 912-engined design, was removed and a full W&B carried out.

 

 

[Mriya]

If you're thinking of my post above, it was a long time since I flew, or even looked at, Brumby 7322 and my memory of whether a chute was fitted shouldn't be taken as gospel

When the aircraft involved was offered for sale in September 2013 it had a ballistic parachute fitted: "Should the world suddenly go pear-shaped for some reason, 24-7322 is equipped with a GRS ballistic recovery system."

So it appears that a chute has been fitted at some stage. Can anyone definitively confirm whether it was still there yesterday? The non-deployment of the chute if fitted remains a mystery.

 

 

[shafs64]

if that aircraft came under the 600kg MTOW rules and it had the chute fitted and if you had two guys pushing 100 kg you would only be taking 1hr fuel + reserves

 

 

[cooperplace]

it makes you think that this could have been a medical situation? Perhaps we will never find out.

 

This sort of accident that makes me think of giving up flying. If Terry, with his immense experience, can't recover this situation, what hope do I have, a low (<200) hours pilot?

 

Very sad, condolences to the families and friends.

 

 

[turboplanner]

it makes you think that this could have been a medical situation? Perhaps we will never find out.This sort of accident that makes me think of giving up flying. If Terry, with his immense experience, can't recover this situation, what hope do I have, a low (<200) hours pilot?

Very sad, condolences to the families and friends.

Don't give up just yet, I think I read ATSB are investigating this one, so we'll get a preliminary quite soon.

 

 

[Clear Prop]

He’s a giant in my eyes, is my flying instructor,

 

He breathes aviation, wheel chocks to load factor.

 

He flies an aircraft with such skill and precision,

 

And endures my rough piloting without any derision.

 

He explains flight theory with great clarity,

 

So just how a wing stalls is now easy to see.

 

My misjudged approaches, he sat stoically through,

 

As I left carb heat on all those landings I flew.

 

Expectant yet patient, he led me through flight,

 

And one day I’ll get those forced landing drills right.

 

So I’m learning steep turns, to flare and side slip,

 

Whilst gaining I hope some of his airmanship.

 

And when I get my wings, and soar through the sky,

 

Something of him will be there each time that I fly.

 

By Trevor

 

I wrote this about Terry as I enjoyed training with him at Penfield.

 

Sad day. A great aviator, great airmanship. A good man. Condolences to his family.

 

 

[Ultralights]

people die every day in cars, and no one gives up driving based on that.

 

quite a lot of factors could have contributed to this, wait and see. even i cant thing of any plausible conclusions based on what i have seen and read. only that the aircraft was possibly in a spin?

 

 

[shafs64]

Most of us here have more chance of getting cancer than dying in a plane crash.

 

 

[cooperplace]

we have quite a high chance of getting cancer, which doesn't console in the least.

 

The spin theory doesn't seem likely to me. A previous post suggested that with CoG problems these could spin, but Terry doesn't seem the kind of guy to omit checking that sort of important detail. But what would I know?

 

 

[Teckair]

we have quite a high chance of getting cancer, which doesn't console in the least.The spin theory doesn't seem likely to me. A previous post suggested that with CoG problems these could spin, but Terry doesn't seem the kind of guy to omit checking that sort of important detail. But what would I know?

Probably not realistic to expect Terry to do a weight and balance every time he got the plane out. RAAus training planes should not be prone to spinning normally you would need low air speed and out of balance crossed controls to induce a spin then the plane should spin nose down not flat. The plane should recover from the spin just by having the controls centralised. A flat spin usually will be caused by the plane being tail heavy. I was told a story about one of Australia's best aerobatic pilots who put a aero bat into a spin and had trouble getting it out of it, turned out someone had fitted a HF radio behind the seat. When instructing if there was any doubts about the W&B I did not do stalls.

 

 

[dutchroll]

If a spin theory doesn't seem likely, why was the aircraft clearly witnessed spiralling all the way to the ground, and why did it impact with low forward velocity? It's not like wreckage is strewn across a wide area with big scrape marks across the ground - it's all in one little spot.

 

There are any number of ways it might have entered into it and any number of reasons why it might not have recovered, but it's the only scenario (I believe) which fits the fairly clear description of spiralling, how it seems to have impacted, and a failure to recover to controlled flight.

 

 

[Teckair]

If a spin theory doesn't seem likely, why was the aircraft clearly witnessed spiralling all the way to the ground,

I agree to me the spin theory is almost certain. Expect more W&B requirements coming up.

 

 

[Oscar]

Hopefully, the investigating authorities ( ATSB / RAA + Police, for the Coroner) will examine very closely whether there are any circumstances particular to that specific aircraft, before rushing to any more general application of 'revisions'. For LSA certified aircraft, the ASTM standard lays out the requirements and AFAIK other Brumbies have not proven to be problematical. If you look at Keith Engelsman's spin testing in the Jabiru videos, he doesn't muck around, he TESTS - and if he signed the Brumby off as meeting the required standard, it would be hard to believe that he didn't do the testing properly.

 

 

[Fairoaks Flyer]

I have never been in flat spin, althoughI have done ordinary spins. I phoned an aerobatic instructor after reading these posts to enquire how to get out of a flat spin. He told me you let go of the stick, pull the throttle completely closed and keep the rudder pedals centred. He said if you have any engine input you can't get out of the flat spin as the engine continues to enhance the spin. I was told that if I followed flat spin instructions, the aeroplane would fly itself out of the spin and the pilot then could resume control. I have certainly learned something from reading these posts.

 

 

[Teckair]

He told me you let go of the stick, pull the throttle completely closed and keep the rudder pedals centred. He said if you have any engine input you can't get out of the flat spin as the engine continues to enhance the spin. I was told that if I followed flat spin instructions, the aeroplane would fly itself out of the spin and the pilot then could resume control. I have certainly learned something from reading these posts.

Can anybody confirm that is correct? as it does not sound right to me.

 

 

[djpacro]

.... I phoned an aerobatic instructor after reading these posts to enquire how to get out of a flat spin. He told me you let go of the stick, pull the throttle completely closed and keep the rudder pedals centred. He said if you have any engine input you can't get out of the flat spin as the engine continues to enhance the spin. I was told that if I followed flat spin instructions, the aeroplane would fly itself out of the spin .....

The Beggs-Mueller technique works for some types and does not work for others. For some types it works in some spin modes but not in others.But that method described isn't even Beggs-Mueller which includes full rudder opposite the yaw.

 

And that is for an aircraft approved for intentional spins.

 

Disappointing from an aerobatic instructor.

 

 

[shafs64]

this might help.

 

 

 

[Teckair]

and if he signed the Brumby off as meeting the required standard, it would be hard to believe that he didn't do the testing properly.

I agree but what happens after that is in the lap of the gods. One day a guy flew into a airfield where I was with a ultralight which had cargo container he had installed behind the wing well behind the C of G. He had put some jerry cans full of fuel in there and complained he had to use a lot of forward stick to maintain level flight. When I told him what he had done was dangerous he did not understand why.