PPL via RPL or direct

[aplund]

As many of you probably know I'm a student tried up with the RQAC collapse. As I'm self sponsored, I have just transferred to another school at YBAF.

 

The tricky part of moving to another school is the differing expectations. As I consider myself in no way knowledgeable or experienced in the flight training enterprise, I usually like to defer some complex decisions to the judgement of those who are more experienced.

 

At RQAC I initially signed up to go for a PPL with the option to keep going if time/situation permits later on. Therefore they put me on a course which skipped many of the RPL endorsements and just go for the PPL requirements. However, moving to the new school, this is not a recommended pathway. They recommend doing a RPL flight test and continuing on to PPL and beyond after that.

 

The issue for me is that I feel that if I complete some solo navigation exercises that I will have enough experience to proceed directly to a PPL flight test and exam. However, I'm concerned about pushing the envelope here as I do understand the motivation to be relaxed as possible during tests and having completed an RPL it makes sense that a flight examiner would be less likely to want to retest all the RPL requirements in a PPL flight test if the student has already passed the RPL.

 

My logbook currently has in it 39.4 hours of aeronautical experience, comprising of 24.4 hours of dual training area and circuit work, 10.9 hours dual nav, 4.1 hours solo (training area only) with 3.3 hours IF experience with 0.3 of that in flight. I was studying for the PPL exam just before RQAC stopped. I'm currently getting about 80-90% on the Bob Tait practice questions.

 

My question here is, what do others think? What would you do in my situation? Should I try and push for doing the PPL tests or do the RPL test then move straight on to the PPL tests.

 

 

[djpacro]

If you don't get the RPL along the way then you (and the school) need to consider the limitations of a student pilot per CASA's new rules. e.g. flight time and calendar time between dual checks (don't go on a long solo nav).

 

 

[poteroo]

However, I'm concerned about pushing the envelope here as I do understand the motivation to be relaxed as possible during tests and having completed an RPL it makes sense that a flight examiner would be less likely to want to retest all the RPL requirements in a PPL flight test if the student has already passed the RPL.

Don't bet on this. Maybe/maybe not.

 

With your hours, and given you've had the disruption of the collapse of RQAC, plus a change to a school having different ideas on progressing students - you might well be better advised to pass your RPL test with the schools' in-house Flight Examiner. This will sort out any weaknesses in your flying, which you'll need to remedy before starting navexs. Reason I say this is that if you have any skills or procedural deficiencies - the extra workload of navexs is going to overwhelm you. A navex isn't where you 'sort out' any weaknesses in your general flying - you'll be too busy for that.

 

Good luck with your flying. happy days,

 

 

[aplund]

If you don't get the RPL along the way then you (and the school) need to consider the limitations of a student pilot per CASA's new rules. e.g. flight time and calendar time between dual checks (don't go on a long solo nav).

Do you mean CASR Part 61.115? When RQAC stopped I was booked for a training area solo. Instead, that has now been a dual exercise which I did on Saturday (9/4/16) at the new school. RQAC still wanted to do one more dual nav before potentially doing a solo nav. I was really looking forward to my first solo nav. The disruption has hugely dented my confidence.

 

 

[aplund]

Don't bet on this. Maybe/maybe not.With your hours, and given you've had the disruption of the collapse of RQAC, plus a change to a school having different ideas on progressing students - you might well be better advised to pass your RPL test with the schools' in-house Flight Examiner. This will sort out any weaknesses in your flying, which you'll need to remedy before starting navexs. Reason I say this is that if you have any skills or procedural deficiencies - the extra workload of navexs is going to overwhelm you. A navex isn't where you 'sort out' any weaknesses in your general flying - you'll be too busy for that.

 

Good luck with your flying. happy days,

I'm sure someone will set me straight on this if I'm wrong. But as far as I can see, I need another 0.9 hours of solo to meet the RPL minimum but if I want a RPL navigation endorsement (which I don't think I do if I'm aiming for PPL) then I need 5 hours of solo nav and another 0.7 hours IF in flight.

 

 

[coljones]

Sometimes it is a bit like a marathon - you grab every bottle of water and every snack as you go past that drink stop. I would grab the RPL and then snatch every other endo on the way. You can then be well assured that when you get the runs up to do the PPL Flight Test you will be well and truly prepared. If you are getting 90% in the Bob Tait exams maybe it is time to get that exam out of the way as well so you can concentrate on flying, your flight test and your PPL KDRs. A well prepared student always impresses a testing officer. Best of wishes.

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

Aplund, very very few of us get our PPL in minimum hours and by you asking these questions leads me to believe that you are putting yourself under needless duress..

 

If you think you can comfortably handle the extra workload continue accordingly... don't be too disappointed with yourself if you go down the RPL path... You have to remember that the direct to PPL is a pathway designed for the full time student...

 

 

[ian00798]

Save yourself a $700 casa test fee and just go straight onto your PPL. Since you already have 10 hours Nav, you most of the way there really and I can't see any benefit for you doing an extra flight test for no good reason. Ultimately, you doing both tests just get the school more money, as they get 2 licence pre tests out of you. The time requirements for RPL Nav and PPL Nav are exactly the same, Nav is Nav and there are only so many ways to do it. Your out of YBAF, so I don't think CTA will scare you too much. Yes, you need another 0.9 solo to go for the RPL test, and you will also need to do that 0.9 training area/CCT for your PPL anyway. My recommendation would be get the theory exam knocked over so you know where your knowledge weaknesses are, then get the PPL done. If the school doesn't want to cooperate, I can recommend one that will.

 

 

[aplund]

Aplund, very very few of us get our PPL in minimum hours and by you asking these questions leads me to believe that you are putting yourself under needless duress..If you think you can comfortably handle the extra workload continue accordingly... don't be too disappointed with yourself if you go down the RPL path... You have to remember that the direct to PPL is a pathway designed for the full time student...

Multiple instructors who I've flown with from AAA have contacted me suggesting that going the RPL route is not in my interests. Though I've also had a number of alternative views put to me. I thought I'd try posting my situation here to see if I could get any clarity in my own head.

 

 

[ian00798]

Go with your instructors on that one, they have flown with you and know your capabilities. I know a school that would be more than happy to help you out and do it your way.

 

 

[Pearo]

I did the RPL -> PPL route. Was it better? I think so, because I did a heap of solo flying before and in between navs, so the aircraft handling part of my training was solid before dealing with learning navigation..

 

However, if you think you are in a position to continue with PPL, then that may well be the best way for you personally.

 

BTW, is used my RPL to do 50 laps of moreton island and the glass house mountains with friends and family! By the time I sat my PPL test I probably had about 50 hours PIC!

 

 

[ian00798]

I've been pretty lucky so far, I hold an RPL with all endorsements, PPL with low level, CSU, retrac, gas turbine, tail wheel, aeros and spins and haven't yet had to do a test with a CASA examiner. However, the $700 test fee, aircraft hire and pre test to do the RPL flight test will top the $2k mark for very little benefit, that's a lot of flying towards your PPL. Like Pearo said, the RPL way worked for him, and it works for a lot of other people, but you sound like you were already close to the PPL flight test, so it may not provide the same benefit to you.

 

 

[aplund]

The issue that remains unclear to me is the PPL flight test will be much easier if your have an RPL. Is that something anyone here can quantify? I could imagine that after 3+ hours flying, with multiple steep turns, all types of stalls, PSAL, forced landings as well as navigation with diversions and a fine tooth comb put through all of your operational techniques would be rather confronting. But exactly what wouldn't be tested in a PPL flight test if you have the RPL? I think the rest of the costs/benefits have been spelt out to me fairly clearly.

 

 

[ian00798]

You will do everything you do in the RPL flight test in the PPL flight test. If you look at the test form for the PPL test, everything on that has to be done except the multi engine stuff, the refuelling stuff and the crosswind landings. If your instructor recommends you for the PPL flight test, that's how you know your ready. You don't get to do the test if your instructors don't think your up to it. I have attached the test forms for you to look at. The big difference between RPL and PPL is the controlled airspace stuff and the NAVEX.

 

 

 

 

 

[aplund]

You will do everything you do in the RPL flight test in the PPL flight test. If you look at the test form for the PPL test, everything on that has to be done except the multi engine stuff, the refuelling stuff and the crosswind landings. If your instructor recommends you for the PPL flight test, that's how you know your ready. You don't get to do the test if your instructors don't think your up to it. I have attached the test forms for you to look at. The big difference between RPL and PPL is the controlled airspace stuff and the NAVEX.

That's a bucket load of stuff. Is this meant to be over multiple flights?

The trick is that the instructors that I have done all but 1.4 hours of my flying are unemployed and won't be making that decision. Though they have said things to me, it's hard for me to know exactly what they were thinking. Right at the moment, in terms of dealing with flight instructors, it feels like I'm starting from scratch.

 

 

[ian00798]

It's all one flight, check with Pearo but I think a PPL test goes for about 3.5 hours flying. I have a very good flight instructor that would be very willing to help you and make the decision in your best interest, not theirs, if you want.

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

Just continue on the direct ppl path.. You already know that the school you are with will support your decision.. They gave you an alternative to make your task easier... Not to line their pockets.. That has already been do e to you and that is why you (and others) are in this postition

 

 

[Pearo]

Can confirm that everything you do in the RPL test is repeated in the PPL. I just checked my log book and I have 1.2 hours for the RPL (including transit to the training area of course) and PPL I have 3.0hrs

 

My PPL practical test was Redcliffe, Archerfield, Toowoomba, Sunshine Coast, Redcliffe. Of course I did not fly that route, because there was a diversion and low level diversion in that, and after the diversion there was aerial work (including a stall under the hood, can you pick the ATO!?).

 

Will the PPL test be easier if you do your RPL first? Depends. As I neared the PPL test, I spend a good ten hours solo under my RPL privileges going out to the training area practicing my aerial work. I did a nav, then did a private hire and did forced lands/ stalls/ steep turns etc. Before my pre-test I went and did all my aerial work solo, aside from the IF. When I did the PPL test, aerial work was the least of my worries and all I had to focus on was the nav/cta stuff. From what I have been told, at the pre-test a lot of students fail because of the aerial work, but that will be addressed and you will probably do an hour or so to fix that then get recommended for your test. If you are confident, then dont worry about the RPL.

 

Aplund, just think of it from the instructors point of view. I sit there on a regular basis in the offfice at Redcliffe and have had seen a lot of AAA students come through the door recently. Our instructors have never flow with the students and are not aware of where they are in their training. So for the instructors at the new school, until they gauge where you are in your training they will treat you as if you are starting from scratch. The instructors need to know that you are not going to kill them or yourself. Once they understand where you are in your training, everything will revert to normal.

 

 

[Kununurra]

Aplund

 

The question to ask is not what others think it is what do you think ., you will be the PIC.

 

Also if you do go the route of PPL why and consider if you do the RPL why? What aircraft would you like to fly after you have achieved any of these qualifications? That may help you decide which direction you go.

 

You seem rather tense on being examined by a different examiner and that is normal but don't let it consume your thoughts and dreams.

 

Are you going to buy an aircraft or hire if so what is available in your interest area.

 

How many times will you fly with more than maybe two pax?

 

I like the idea of 50 laps of Moreton Island that sounds like a great way to clock up not only hours but experiences.

 

The world is your oyster

 

Enjoy

 

 

[djpacro]

Do you mean CASR Part 61.115?

yes

[aplund]

AplundThe question to ask is not what others think it is what do you think ., you will be the PIC.

Also if you do go the route of PPL why and consider if you do the RPL why? What aircraft would you like to fly after you have achieved any of these qualifications? That may help you decide which direction you go.

 

You seem rather tense on being examined by a different examiner and that is normal but don't let it consume your thoughts and dreams.

 

Are you going to buy an aircraft or hire if so what is available in your interest area.

 

How many times will you fly with more than maybe two pax?

 

I like the idea of 50 laps of Moreton Island that sounds like a great way to clock up not only hours but experiences.

 

The world is your oyster

 

Enjoy

Many of these questions I considered well before I started training, which is why I'm committed to PPL. It's just that I've had a spanner thrown in the works, and I'm now offered the route of RPL first, then PPL. This was not a consideration before and now I have to choose. The previous instructors from AAA which I have contact with have told me that it's a waste of my time and money to go via RPL, and that weighs heavily. But there is a lot of experienced people out there telling me going straight for the PPL isn't the right thing to do in terms of pressure on myself.

To be honest, if I just kept heading towards the PPL without having multiple conflicting opinions, then pressure would be less (ignorance is bliss?). There were very few issues brought up during my time at AAA even with the extensive briefings and de-briefings they did.

 

The last navigation exercise I did with AAA, I felt, was pretty good. The instructor was largely hands-off in terms of radios and corrective actions (e.g. low level diversion). Though sometimes I needed a little prompting to fix some things; the lost procedure seemed to take a bit too long, but it was my first time doing it.

 

I'm not sure why you think I'm tense in being examined by a different examiner. I've not had a flight test to date, so I'm not sure what's different.

 

But I'm well aware that self-confidence can make you your own worst enemy. I'm not exactly sure how the new school plan to gauge "where I'm at". I've gone through all their verbal testing fine and the flight to the training area was fine and I think my weaknesses were on display.

 

So, the question I need to answer is, do I take the current path of least resistance and do an RPL or continue on the path PPL path that was interrupted?

 

I'm not sure what others think here, but I think I'm going to try and push to continue to the PPL. Those flight test sheets are good to know and I think it has helped. But I am going to be told that the PPL test will be a lot easier with an RPL and that's the line I'm going to have to push back on.

 

 

[Pearo]

Aplund, we have all given you our opinion, and the pro's and cons. We cant tell you what to do.

 

 

[ian00798]

Aplund, if it's test pressure your a bit worried about, I don't think that will be any less for an RPL flight test. If your a bit worried about the PPL been too much on one day, I believe there is actually an option to split the Nav component and air work component over two seperate days, as per 5.5.3 on page 51 of the flight examiners handbook, although I honestly wouldn't recommend doing that. I honestly don't believe the test will be any more or less difficult if you haven't done an RPL flight test. Keep in mind, you can actually do a CPL without doing an RPL or PPL.

 

Is there anything you are particularly worried about for the flight test? When your doing the test, remember that the testing officer has to tell you when you have failed, so if you are still going on the test then you are passing. You can (and will) make mistakes on the test and still pass. The instant fail items tend to be violating controlled airspace (testing officer shouldn't let it actually happen though) or placing the aircraft in a dangerous state with appropriate corrective action. I suggest reading this blog for information on the flight test:

 

http://makingtimeforflying.blogspot.com.au/2009/01/ppl-test-part-1-from-redcliffe-to.html

 

And ultimately follow your instincts. Going from your posts, I think your quite an intelligent, capable person who can make a good decision based on the information and opinions given here.

 

 

[aplund]

Is there anything you are particularly worried about for the flight test?

Well, I wasn't actually worried about anything at all. It's just that I've now had multiple people tell me that the PPL test will be orders of magnitude harder if you haven't passed an RPL flight test. Things were cruising along at AAA and nobody there said this. It's the divergence of opinion that is probably most concerning.

 

One thing that I'm considering at the moment is, if I was starting again but with some of the information I have now, would I go via an RPL. I'd have to say that I probably wouldn't.

 

 

[facthunter]

I agree. It's a step you don't have to take if you are going PPL or CPL. Nev