Another NEW Savannah S on it's way in NZ

[IBob]

Yes, I have the one piece wing tip. That kinda makes my point about the manual. My kit has the one piece wing tip, the new plumbing that simply joins the long range tanks to the nearest inboard tank, the new vent line for the collector tank, and the extended baggage compartment. The manual simply states "install wing tip" without offering any tips on how to do it. I did the first one in two days, the second one in 30 minutes. The new tank plumbing isn't in the manual at all, other material is scattered across three different sections, the references to various chapters, page numbers, and illustrations are usually inaccurate, and the master list of components is missing many of the parts. It seems to me that ICP has done an outstanding job of listening to pilots and updating the design, making it better and better. What puzzles me is why they don't do the same for the construction manual. Many of my pages are dated 2010... The good news is that the kit design, organization, and fabrication is fantastic and Valter della Nebbia here in Texas is an easy, helpful friend to reach out to at any time. More than a salesman, he is also a very experienced pilot (former NATO fighter pilot), builder, and superb instructor. He has been an excellent source for advice not only on construction but also in deciding which features and equipment to install based on the mission profile you desire.

".......new plumbing that simply joins the long range tanks to the nearest inboard tank....."

 

Can we please discuss that one, I was under the impression we were still bringing all 4 lines into the cockpit, then valving it one way or another???

 

 

[IBob]

As we all know, the construction manual really stinks but the aircraft is a sweeheart and the kit is really impressive. All the parts are labeled, bundled together, and designed in a way that things can only go one way. Now if only I wouldn't spend hours trying to find an odd part, decipher the cryptic manual, or figure out how to do things like "install wing tip." So far I've gotten the tail feathers and wings done, now I'm working on the fuselage. You can check out my build progress on www.mykitlog.com/mcrowley

I look forward to visiting your kitlog when I have some time this w/e!

 

 

[rankamateur]

I look forward to visiting your kitlog when I have some time this w/e!

I just had a quick look, Very impressed with the prepping.

 

Looking at those fuselage frames getting their first skins, reminded me of something I tried out on my build. Due to my Airmaster constant speed prop installation, caused my battery to need installation in the rear position near the door. I fitted the left sheet on the right and visa versa, moving the door to the right hand side of the fuselage and giving a lot more room to access the battery terminals and tie down bolt.

 

 

[IBob]

So. Today, finally, after all the preamble, I got to pull some rivets. And did that feel good!

 

That black stuff is a little like maple syrup, in that it mysteriously finds it's way onto tools, doorknobs, and various flat surfaces. I'm going to have to get my system sorted out there: I trimmed a small roller to 20mm wide, and that works fine, now I need to organise a less messy way to get the stuff onto the roller in the first place. It seems to skin and dry very quickly (which is great once it's applied) so I'm guessing it needs to be kept in a closed container of some sort between rolls?

 

Question: I find that I am sometimes marking the heads of the rivets with a little nick or raised edge. I guess this is sometimes bounce in the gun, sometimes not holding it quite perpendicular.

 

I checked that I am using the correct size tip.

 

I tried steadying the tip with the other hand and that seems to improve things (although it's going to be just a bit slower).

 

I also backed off the pressure from 6 bar to about 4.5 and i think that helped too.

 

Are there any other tips or suggestions on this? What pressure are others using?

 

 

[IBob]

As we all know, the construction manual really stinks but the aircraft is a sweeheart and the kit is really impressive. All the parts are labeled, bundled together, and designed in a way that things can only go one way. Now if only I wouldn't spend hours trying to find an odd part, decipher the cryptic manual, or figure out how to do things like "install wing tip." So far I've gotten the tail feathers and wings done, now I'm working on the fuselage. You can check out my build progress on www.mykitlog.com/mcrowley

Had a look at your log earlier, you're certainly firing ahead! And I surely envy you your periodic Savannah flights in the meantime. Will you do the test flights yourself, do you think?

 

 

[rick morawski]

So. Today, finally, after all the preamble, I got to pull some rivets. And did that feel good!That black stuff is a little like maple syrup, in that it mysteriously finds it's way onto tools, doorknobs, and various flat surfaces. I'm going to have to get my system sorted out there: I trimmed a small roller to 20mm wide, and that works fine, now I need to organise a less messy way to get the stuff onto the roller in the first place. It seems to skin and dry very quickly (which is great once it's applied) so I'm guessing it needs to be kept in a closed container of some sort between rolls?

Question: I find that I am sometimes marking the heads of the rivets with a little nick or raised edge. I guess this is sometimes bounce in the gun, sometimes not holding it quite perpendicular.

 

I checked that I am using the correct size tip.

 

I tried steadying the tip with the other hand and that seems to improve things (although it's going to be just a bit slower).

 

I also backed off the pressure from 6 bar to about 4.5 and i think that helped too.

 

Are there any other tips or suggestions on this? What pressure are others using?

I've notice when people new to the air riveter tend to hold it too hard against the rivet head, so when it recoils it is pushed back onto to the rivet or worse onto the skin. The trick is a loose grip with no pushing pressure so it recoils in your hand away from the surface. You'll quickly get the knack anyway. Have fun:smile:

 

 

[IBob]

Thanks, Rick. I'm also going to back the air off some more, I think I had it way too high initially, which made for a sharp sort of recoil. Apart from that, I think my rivets are pretty straight, and I didn't hit the skin (so far).

 

So. Still getting the tools set up with these early days: today I must sort out some soft jaws for my new vice. When next in town I must find the correct fittings for an air line, so the compressor doesn't have to follow me around. And I am currently using an old awl where necessary to align the holes, but the diameter is a bit small, and I need to find or make something better before I get to the more challenging stuff.

 

It's interesting to see what different people do by way of prep.

 

Rankamateur is etch priming both mating faces, then applying the black stuff, also etch priming where the rivet heads will go before putting them in. If I understand correctly. That seems like a top of the line job.

 

Another builder I know is intending to use etch primer only, no black stuff, but also wants to solid rivet, and has the skills and the equipment.

 

I'm intending to use the black stuff only, but also etch prime where the rivet heads will go.

 

QUESTION: Does anyone know if ICP intended us to coat both mating surfaces with the black stuff? Eg, when putting skin over ribs, are both the ribs and the skin precoated with black? Or just the ribs?

 

 

[rankamateur]

Rankamateur is etch priming both mating faces, then applying the black stuff, also etch priming where the rivet heads will go before putting them in. If I understand correctly. That seems like a top of the line job.Another builder I know is intending to use etch primer only, no black stuff, but also wants to solid rivet, and has the skills and the equipment.

I'm intending to use the black stuff only, but also etch prime where the rivet heads will go.

 

QUESTION: Does anyone know if ICP intended us to coat both mating surfaces with the black stuff? Eg, when putting skin over ribs, are both the ribs and the skin precoated with black? Or just the ribs?

My job is suitable for inland. If I lived and flew mostly on the coast I would have deburred then alodined everything, and probably also used that poisonous chromate primer. It is a case of horses for courses.

 

The black has to go on both mating surfaces and allow to dry well. If you choose to just use etch primer you will get working on the rivets at joints especially where pivot points are involved like where the elevator and rudder pivots attach.

 

 

[IBob]

My job is suitable for inland. If I lived and flew mostly on the coast I would have deburred then alodined everything, and probably also used that poisonous chromate primer. It is a case of horses for courses.The black has to go on both mating surfaces and allow to dry well. If you choose to just use etch primer you will get working on the rivets at joints especially where pivot points are involved like where the elevator and rudder pivots attach.

That's a valuable insight, Steve. And probably needs spelling out: It's hard to tell from pics online, but it seems to me there are a few kits going together out there with the blackstuff on ribs etc but not on the skins.

 

 

[mcrowley]

I just had a quick look, Very impressed with the prepping.Looking at those fuselage frames getting their first skins, reminded me of something I tried out on my build. Due to my Airmaster constant speed prop installation, caused my battery to need installation in the rear position near the door. I fitted the left sheet on the right and visa versa, moving the door to the right hand side of the fuselage and giving a lot more room to access the battery terminals and tie down bolt.

I would love to see pics of your battery box set up. Since I will be using a Corvair engine I will also need to shift the battery back. I ordered two boxes, mounted the first one in the stock location just for grins. Now, how to mount one near the access door in the tail???

 

 

[mcrowley]

So. Today, finally, after all the preamble, I got to pull some rivets. And did that feel good!That black stuff is a little like maple syrup, in that it mysteriously finds it's way onto tools, doorknobs, and various flat surfaces. I'm going to have to get my system sorted out there: I trimmed a small roller to 20mm wide, and that works fine, now I need to organise a less messy way to get the stuff onto the roller in the first place. It seems to skin and dry very quickly (which is great once it's applied) so I'm guessing it needs to be kept in a closed container of some sort between rolls?

Question: I find that I am sometimes marking the heads of the rivets with a little nick or raised edge. I guess this is sometimes bounce in the gun, sometimes not holding it quite perpendicular.

 

I checked that I am using the correct size tip.

 

I tried steadying the tip with the other hand and that seems to improve things (although it's going to be just a bit slower).

 

I also backed off the pressure from 6 bar to about 4.5 and i think that helped too.

 

Are there any other tips or suggestions on this? What pressure are others using?

I like to use a disposable 1" foam brush for the black primer, it has worked very well for me and I have good control of where the paint ends up :)

 

 

[mcrowley]

Thanks, Rick. I'm also going to back the air off some more, I think I had it way too high initially, which made for a sharp sort of recoil. Apart from that, I think my rivets are pretty straight, and I didn't hit the skin (so far).So. Still getting the tools set up with these early days: today I must sort out some soft jaws for my new vice. When next in town I must find the correct fittings for an air line, so the compressor doesn't have to follow me around. And I am currently using an old awl where necessary to align the holes, but the diameter is a bit small, and I need to find or make something better before I get to the more challenging stuff.

 

It's interesting to see what different people do by way of prep.

 

Rankamateur is etch priming both mating faces, then applying the black stuff, also etch priming where the rivet heads will go before putting them in. If I understand correctly. That seems like a top of the line job.

 

Another builder I know is intending to use etch primer only, no black stuff, but also wants to solid rivet, and has the skills and the equipment.

 

I'm intending to use the black stuff only, but also etch prime where the rivet heads will go.

 

QUESTION: Does anyone know if ICP intended us to coat both mating surfaces with the black stuff? Eg, when putting skin over ribs, are both the ribs and the skin precoated with black? Or just the ribs?

According to Valter, the black sealer is only applied to one surface of the mating pair.

 

 

[mcrowley]

Had a look at your log earlier, you're certainly firing ahead! And I surely envy you your periodic Savannah flights in the meantime. Will you do the test flights yourself, do you think?

I will probably ask Valter to fly the test flight as he has offered and I'm a very low time pilot. I'm looking forward to changing that !!! ;-)

 

 

[rankamateur]

I would love to see pics of your battery box set up. Since I will be using a Corvair engine I will also need to shift the battery back. I ordered two boxes, mounted the first one in the stock location just for grins. Now, how to mount one near the access door in the tail???

I used some surplus angulars from the area around the extra fuel tanks and fixed them between the fames either side of the door. Trouble is once you put the battery in there is very little room to reach in and do up the retainer bolt, hence the need to swap the door to the opposite side. Photo coming soon.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I ordered a second door frame and door and fitted it to the other side so have a door in both sides

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Here is the door fitted

 

 

 

 

 

[rankamateur]

I would love to see pics of your battery box set up.

 

 

 

The rivet rows on the lower and left hand skin show where the angulars are installed to support the battery tray.

 

 

[dan tonner]

With a few careful cuts and folds, I modified the battery box so the battery drops into a "well" cut into the top of the original "shelf".

 

 

I added some rubber padding on the bottom and sides.

 

 

I elected to install a battery isolator solenoid on the positive cable in the wiring at the battery box. A ground wire from the solenoid runs to a "Master" toggle switch on the panel. Grounding that wire via the switch powers the system.

 

 

This leaves lots of room to connect the battery cables either before or after battery placement and makes installation and removal a snap.

 

My solution to battery access.

 

Fly safely,

 

Dan

 

 

[mcrowley]

Thanks for the pics and the different solutions to the problem! Kyle, how is your box installed? It looks like the stock battery box but I can't see how you've modified it... Thanks all!

 

 

[IBob]

A good day here:

 

I discovered why I was marking rivet heads: the rivet gun nosepieces all seem to be up a size, so the D 3/32" actually works fine with the A4 3.2mm rivets, the C 1/8" works with the A5 4mm rivets, and so on. Which is to say I should have ignored the gun sizing info and chosen the nosepiece by fit.

 

As it was, I was trying to use an oversized nosepiece.

 

Okay, I feel stupid, but mostly I feel very relieved to have got to the bottom of that with only the Fin riveted.

 

Next discovery was that you can't set the rudder hinge rivets (A5) flat using the rivet gun, as there is insufficient clearance for the gun head: if you use the gun you get angled rivets. I dug out my old die cast hand riveter and filed the top of it away until I had sufficient clearance to pull the rivets flat that way.

 

And finally I found a quick and dirty way to shape the skin for the underside of the rudder. All ready to go there, once I pick up a rivet squeezer tomorrow.

 

I have to say I'm liking very much the way this aluminium works. It seems to have a great deal of spring without kinking, which is great for the amateurs amongst us (that's me) as we wrestle some of the shapes into place.

 

Close up the rudder tomorrow, then onto the stabiliser.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Forgot to tell you that the first thing to do to you air riveter is to grind the silver tube that hold the "nose piece" as you call it, flat for about two inches on the top side, but make sure the silver tube is tightened right up before you judge where the top is. You can grind into it until you can just see through to the plunger that grips the rivet stem. There are quite a few places it will then fit into properly.

 

 

[IBob]

Forgot to tell you that the first thing to do to you air riveter is to grind the silver tube that hold the "nose piece" as you call it, flat for about two inches on the top side, but make sure the silver tube is tightened right up before you judge where the top is. You can grind into it until you can just see through to the plunger that grips the rivet stem. There are quite a few places it will then fit into properly.

Thanks, Steve. From that, it sounds as though there is a fair bit of such riveting to be done, then (not just here and there)?

 

"Nose piece" is what it says in the gun parts list, I don't know what the local name for that would be.

 

And since I'm now using the smallest one for the medium sized rivets, hopefully it will work okay with the smallest ones. I guess I'm going to find out!

 

 

[rankamateur]

I haven't read the pats list, sorry. Don't know what the silver bit would be called, just wanted you to grind the right part.

 

 

[mcrowley]

I ordered a second door frame and door and fitted it to the other side so have a door in both sides

Do you have any pics of the battery box install? Close ups? How did you modify it to fit? I've heard that the taildragger version has the battery in the tail... maybe they have a custom support design?

 

 

[IBob]

First question today:

 

Local LAME has rivet squeezer but not the dies to fit the solid rivets for trailing edges:

 

Supplied rivets are AN470 AD3-3, according to the manual, and they have a much smaller more rounded head, which means the imperial dies don't hold them centered.

 

Does anyone in Oz carry suitable dies for this, or is it another job for Aircraft Spruce???