Another NEW Savannah S on it's way in NZ

[rankamateur]

Didn't your manual tell you to use water pump pliers?

 

I used Reg's tool which I think he bought in Brisbane so try sending him an email. I think the sticker with their name on it rubbed off on a hot sweaty day about four years ago but he will remember were it came from.

 

 

[IBob]

Didn't your manual tell you to use water pump pliers?I used Reg's tool which I think he bought in Brisbane so try sending him an email. I think the sticker with their name on it rubbed off on a hot sweaty day about four years ago but he will remember were it came from.

Yes, I got the water pump pliers suggestion. But I also got a quick lesson from the the LAME on how to get it right. And I figure I need all the help I can get here, which includes using the right tool for the job when I can!

 

I've emailed them Spruce folk to ask if they have the right sized die, they certainly have AN470 rivet specs on their site...

 

 

[IBob]

PS, thanks Steve. (And how come you didn't us the pump pliers???)

 

Second Question:

 

On the rudder the nearest A4 rib rivets to the trailing edge tend to collide, LH to RH.

 

I see they've offset the holes in the ribs to try to avoid this, but not enough, apparently.

 

Is there a workaround for this...a shorter rivet, maybe???

 

 

[rankamateur]

I only had trouble with the second rivet, there was room for the first one. I used a standard rivet for the second one, put it in beside the first and applied more than normal pressure to the gun as I pulled it and it pulled up straight on the second attempt, drilled the first one out. Then did the other ribs the same. I think you will have a bit of the same trouble on the flaperon ribs too from memory.

 

 

[rankamateur]

I've emailed them Spruce folk to ask if they have the right sized die, they certainly have AN470 rivet specs on their site...

You have to hold your mouth right when you are doing solid rivets and it was a lot easier before I needed glasses, than it was after.

 

I used solid rivets across my dash board too, still have the butt end of the three A4 rivets in the middle though. Also on the four mounting plates around engine cowl fixtures, but I needed the extra reach jaws in the tool to reach them. There were enough solid rivets supplied to do all that and still had some over, Pity they weren't as generous with the regular A4 rivets.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Thanks for the pics and the different solutions to the problem! Kyle, how is your box installed? It looks like the stock battery box but I can't see how you've modified it... Thanks all!

I originally had the battery box installed behind the pilot in the aircraft as per the manual I have, but was a bit nose heavy when I got her flying. I removed that box and installed it in the rear position which then balanced the aircraft beautifully. It is mounted where the manual says but that is why I have installed the second door on the other side of the aircraft. It gives me lots of room for a tool kit in the rear as well. I can easily put about 6kg into the rear without being detrimental to my W&B

 

 

[IBob]

You have to hold your mouth right when you are doing solid rivets and it was a lot easier before I needed glasses, than it was after.I used solid rivets across my dash board too, still have the butt end of the three A4 rivets in the middle though. Also on the four mounting plates around engine cowl fixtures, but I needed the extra reach jaws in the tool to reach them. There were enough solid rivets supplied to do all that and still had some over, Pity they weren't as generous with the regular A4 rivets.

Thanks, Steve, more good info. I'm wanted at work for the next couple of days, but i'll sort the rudder rivets Friday. Those things always seem easier at start of day than end.

 

I was looking at a very old build somewhere, and the builder had broken his time into Build and Logistics. Logistics being time spent chasing tools, materials, setting up etc. Right now I'm doing about as much Logistics as Build, but I would imagine that ration will shift way over as I proceed...at least until it's engine time. Which reminds me, I need to start looking at my supply options there.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Which reminds me, I need to start looking at my supply options there.

Take it easy, I bought my engine when I bought my kit, spent a lot more time working on everything but my plane build for nearly three years, now I need my engine and I have three years of my fifteen years engine life already used. The way CASA are walking all over RAA, homebuilts will be having fifteen year old engines ripped out by the time it has run time.

 

 

[mcrowley]

PS, thanks Steve. (And how come you didn't us the pump pliers???)Second Question:

On the rudder the nearest A4 rib rivets to the trailing edge tend to collide, LH to RH.

 

I see they've offset the holes in the ribs to try to avoid this, but not enough, apparently.

 

Is there a workaround for this...a shorter rivet, maybe???

I found that using a rivet cutter worked well, in other words.... I cut the stock rivet in half and used a shortened rivet on each side. You'll have the same challenge in a few places on the flaperons and the wings as you near the trailing edge.

 

 

[mcrowley]

I originally had the battery box installed behind the pilot in the aircraft as per the manual I have, but was a bit nose heavy when I got her flying. I removed that box and installed it in the rear position which then balanced the aircraft beautifully. It is mounted where the manual says but that is why I have installed the second door on the other side of the aircraft. It gives me lots of room for a tool kit in the rear as well. I can easily put about 6kg into the rear without being detrimental to my W&B

Kyle... Do you have any drawing, pics, or closeups of the install? I'll need to do the same but I'm still trying to "engineer" the install... Thanks!!!

 

 

[rankamateur]

I found that using a rivet cutter worked well, in other words.... I cut the stock rivet in half and used a shortened rivet on each side. You'll have the same challenge in a few places on the flaperons and the wings as you near the trailing edge.

Excellent solution, of course you can do that because they are multi pull rivets and the blind seal is not critical. Why didn't somebody suggest that earlier?

 

 

[IBob]

I found that using a rivet cutter worked well, in other words.... I cut the stock rivet in half and used a shortened rivet on each side. You'll have the same challenge in a few places on the flaperons and the wings as you near the trailing edge.

Thank you, Mcrowley. Now I have to cut open one of these blind rivets to see how it can be shortened in this way.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Put the stem solidly in the vice and cut through with and abrasive thin disc?

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

 

Kyle... Do you have any drawing, pics, or closeups of the install? I'll need to do the same but I'm still trying to "engineer" the install... Thanks!!!

The sheets in the kit had the holes punched for the battery box to go into either location. The manual I had in the kit said to install the battery behind the pilot. As I said I wasnt happy with the balance when flying so decided to move the 8kg down the back to where the battery was in the savannahs overseas. The factory ones here come with the battery behind the pilot from what I have seen. I then used quite thick gauge cables to run from the rear to the front for starting. I basically made a junction box where the battery was using a nylon plate with tapped brass junctions so everything could be well bolted and insulated. This also gave me a easy connection point for my battery charging terminal access as all of this is before my battery isolation switch. I have some pics I hope they show you what I did and give you some ideas. This was all done some 5 months after I got the aircraft flying. But it was easy as the holes were already in both positions.

 

 

 

[IBob]

I found that using a rivet cutter worked well, in other words.... I cut the stock rivet in half and used a shortened rivet on each side. You'll have the same challenge in a few places on the flaperons and the wings as you near the trailing edge.

Okay...having read up on multi pull rivets, then filed one open lengthwise to see inside, then tried a shortened one anyway, I seem to be missing something completely here:

 

Surely, if you shorten a blind rivet, you are cutting off the head of the mandrel that does the compressing when the rivet is installed?

 

When I shortened one (with hacksaw, I don't have rivet cutters yet), the mandrel pulled straight out without compressing the rivet at all. As you would expect.

 

The only thing I can think is that maybe using a rivet cutter crimps the rivet onto the remaining mandrel at the cut, so allowing some sort of pull. But if so, I can't see that the result would be very reliable?

 

 

[IBob]

Question: since I now want to source some short A4 rivets, does anyone know what sort of rivets they are, please?

 

 

[rankamateur]

Question: since I now want to source some short A4 rivets, does anyone know what sort of rivets they are, please?

Reg calls them Avex I think.

 

 

[rick morawski]

Okay...having read up on multi pull rivets, then filed one open lengthwise to see inside, then tried a shortened one anyway, I seem to be missing something completely here:Surely, if you shorten a blind rivet, you are cutting off the head of the mandrel that does the compressing when the rivet is installed?

 

When I shortened one (with hacksaw, I don't have

 

The only thing I can think is that maybe using a rivet cutter crimps the rivet onto the remaining mandrel at the cut, so allowing some sort of pull. But if so, I can't see that the result would be very reliable?

Bob if you want to make short rivets (you won't buy any) you need to hammer out the mandrel from the rivet, cut the rivet shorter, replace the mandrel, voila, short rivet. I tried it this afternoon on a couple rivets, took about five minutes. It revealed another problem, the stem of the mandrel sticks out of the rivet head a tiny bit when pulled, no big deal to carefully file it off if you only have a few.

 

 

[IBob]

Bob if you want to make short rivets (you won't buy any) you need to hammer out the mandrel from the rivet, cut the rivet shorter, replace the mandrel, voila, short rivet. I tried it this afternoon on a couple rivets, took about five minutes. It revealed another problem, the stem of the mandrel sticks out of the rivet head a tiny bit when pulled, no big deal to carefully file it off if you only have a few.

Thanks, Rick. I did try to hammer a mandrel out, but will need to support the rivet better when doing that. I'll drill a block for the rivet to sit in tomorrow, and see if I can get the mandrels out without damage. And I know where the break point in the mandrel is, so if I don't shorten too much, the stem may not be proud.

 

 

[IBob]

Today, shortened some A4 rivets:

 

I drilled a 1/8 hole in a hardwood block, to support the rivet while hammering the mandrel out.

 

Wood, not metal: and I then threw away the first 3 rivets. Reason being the underside of the head is not flat, it's dished, and the first couple or so get flattened. After that, the dished shape of the rivet imprints in the wood, and the rivets can be dismantled with the correct shape maintained. I assume the head pulls flat when the rivet is set, and this maintains some tension.

 

I then drilled and cut another bit of hardwood to allow me to put the rivets across the bench saw. Using the saw fence, I get a clean flat cut with all the rivets cut to the same length. The body of the rivet is approx 9mm long. I cut them back to 6mm.

 

They did the job fine at the rear of the rudder where the last A4 rivets are opposed left and right, although I had to put them in both sides.

 

As Rick said, the mandrel sticks out a tiny bit, but it's easy to clean up, although I shall cut some simple mask to protect the surrounding skin if there's much of this to do.

 

 

[IBob]

Having received my (cheap) rivnut setter, and also my (cheap) Loctite 620, I was able to set the rivnuts in the fin. I'm wondering if i should have countersunk these. The rivets in between are countersunk, as per the manual, the rivnuts sit maybe half a mm proud?

 

Now all I have to find for the rudder is the correct AN470 squeezer die for the trailing edge.

 

And clean up the marked rivets on the fin, where I used the oversized rivet gun tip.

 

 

[IBob]

Next, I removed the black stuff that I put on some of the stabiliser parts yesterday before it got the better of me. This was a slow and messy business, but may offer an explanation as to how this stuff sticks parts together: I took it off with thinners, which softens it, so perhaps when an assembly is being prepped for painting, or painted, the black stuff is softened and sticks together? Depending on what you use?

 

I then set up my new (cheap) touchup gun and had a play with that, producing mostly overspray. I then drove to town (yet again), bought reducer...and tomorrow is another day...)

 

 

[rankamateur]

The head doesn't pull flat! It does press on the sheet all the way around when it is pulled in a hole on a curved surface so the is some deformation as the rivet is pulled.

 

 

[IBob]

The head doesn't pull flat! It does press on the sheet all the way around when it is pulled in a hole on a curved surface so the is some deformation as the rivet is pulled.

Okay, well if you're not careful with hammering the mandrels out, it's flat before you even use it. That was my point.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Having received my (cheap) rivnut setter, and also my (cheap) Loctite 620, I was able to set the rivnuts in the fin. I'm wondering if i should have countersunk these. The rivets in between are countersunk, as per the manual, the rivnuts sit maybe half a mm proud?

The rivnuts that came with my kit are flush head, but the ones that came with the rivnut pliers have a proud boss when finished, they also need a lot larger hole drilled. Make sure you are using the correct rivnuts.