Another NEW Savannah S on it's way in NZ

[Blueadventures]

Thank you, Steve.My build table is 1200 wide, it sounds as though I'd be best to put that to one side, as there's another builder wants it, and make the fuselage bench from scratch. Easy enough with cheap ply & tech screws.

Any suggestions about height? I'm a very average 5'9".

 

Thanks.

Just an idea ask the other builder to make the narrower table and you borrow that of him. That may save you some time; also sounds like he'll need a narrow one if hes building a Sav.

 

 

[eightyknots]

I've notice when people new to the air riveter tend to hold it too hard against the rivet head, so when it recoils it is pushed back onto to the rivet or worse onto the skin. The trick is a loose grip with no pushing pressure so it recoils in your hand away from the surface. You'll quickly get the knack anyway. Have fun:smile:

Has anyone considered using (or have used) a battery operated rivet gun rather than an air operated one?

 

 

[rick morawski]

I get to buy more tools! Do you guys also rotate the fuselage for painting, or is that not practical?.

I would love a fuselage rotator but have never had the spare cash to build one. I suspend the fuse in the spray booth with wire, high enough for the painter to get underneath. I don't spray paint myself I leave that to experts, looks so much better than what I could do.

 

Has anyone considered using (or have used) a battery operated rivet gun rather than an air operated one?

Yes I have considered it, would be handy for outside jobs so I don't have to lug a compressor with me, but in reality I wouldn't buy one when a pneumatic one comes included with the kit.

 

 

[IBob]

Just an idea ask the other builder to make the narrower table and you borrow that of him. That may save you some time; also sounds like he'll need a narrow one if hes building a Sav.

Thank you for the suggestion. I set out with a big table (more is better, right?) but now I've cut it down I actually think it was too big.

 

Assuming 4m and narrowish is good for the fuse (I'm about to find out) you only need something wider than that for the wings.

 

Oddly, I've now ended up with a size about the same as the box it all came in. Hm...

 

 

[IBob]

I would love a fuselage rotator but have never had the spare cash to build one. I suspend the fuse in the spray booth with wire, high enough for the painter to get underneath. I don't spray paint myself I leave that to experts, looks so much better than what I could do.

Yes I have considered it, would be handy for outside jobs so I don't have to lug a compressor with me, but in reality I wouldn't buy one when a pneumatic one comes included with the kit.

Steve was suggesting motor stands to make the riveting easier. I was wondering if they could then be used for the painting in some way. I guess I'll get a better feel for that once I have something looking like a fuselage.

 

As for the riveting, so far that's the quick bit for me, and I find I quite enjoy it. And there's something nice about the kerchunka of the air gun with the pressure backed off just a bit so it feels lazy?

 

 

[rankamateur]

I get to buy more tools! Do you guys also rotate the fuselage for painting, or is that not practical?Yes, I'm trying to keep the bubble wrap between the build and everything else. But for all my care, I have one or two marks I wish I didn't have: nothing serious, but it's still frustrating...

I used my wife for my second rotating pivot. At Aerokits we often talked about setting up two engine cranes but I dont think he ever did it.

 

If you havent rivetted the sheets on, you can get them on a hard flat surface and rub a lot of those marks out with a smooth faced steel hammer. Might need to polish the hammer face on an oil stone to make it really smooth and use lube on the dented surface so it doesnt drag on the surface. By the time it is primed to paint you wont see it.

 

 

[IBob]

Questions: I am just completing the rear fuselage. This includes the baggage area (extended), which should (don't you love that should?) have been fitted prior to skinning. Oh well, it's in now.

 

I am about to put in the aileron bar covers, in the baggage area. I have read mention that sometimes the aileron pivots (in the fuselage) do not line up correctly with the ailerons.

 

Is this a usual problem?

 

If this happens, what is moved to correct it?

 

Should I be riveting the aileron bar covers in place (as the manual says) at this point?

 

Thanks.

 

Bob

 

 

[rankamateur]

I have read mention that sometimes the aileron pivots (in the fuselage) do not line up correctly with the ailerons.Is this a usual problem?

The pivot in a VG/XL is a bolted plate with a bolt welded in the middle which doesn't line up with the hangers on the wing. You have an S model which is much improved in this area of the design, so don't fret and get on with it.

 

 

[IBob]

The pivot in a VG/XL is a bolted plate with a bolt welded in the middle which doesn't line up with the hangers on the wing. You have an S model which is much improved in this area of the design, so don't fret and get on with it.

Thanks for that, Steve. Of all the areas so far, this retro-fit of the baggage area has been oddly trying. And in the case of the aileron bar covers (as they are called in the manual) I discover that I have to drop the front floor of the baggage area again to get them in, plus 'move' some of their upper front rivet holes then rivet the back ones from the rear, blind. I'd hate to get them in, and the floor riveted again to find I have to drop the whole lot out later to adjust something else.

 

Hence the question.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Why are you retrofitting it instead of building it along as you go? There is no substitute for having a bucket with about 400 clecoes and keep clecoing it up until everything fits then rivet it up. About three times it will be a bit hard to reach something and then you need a really compact hand rivet gun.

 

 

[IBob]

Why are you retrofitting it instead of building it along as you go? There is no substitute for having a bucket with about 400 clecoes and keep clecoing it up until everything fits then rivet it up. About three times it will be a bit hard to reach something and then you need a really compact hand rivet gun.

My main mistake was to skin and rivet the rear fuse before fitting the baggage section. If there is somewhere a note saying 'fit the baggage section before fitting the skins', I have not seen it. In the manual, the fitting of the baggage section is part of the last bits to be fitted to the finished rear fuse.

My ongoing difficulties (with the baggage section) have been fixing with rivets of that assembly when the manual said so.

 

Slow learner, I guess?

 

But you're absolutely right, I should have clekoed the whole lot up: I did that, and thought i had finally arrived, but did not include the aileron bar covers...

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

The pivot in a VG/XL is a bolted plate with a bolt welded in the middle which doesn't line up with the hangers on the wing. You have an S model which is much improved in this area of the design, so don't fret and get on with it.

I can attest to this...I had to redril mine and even modify one of my brackets....was a pain in the bum...considering how accurate the whole aircraft build is you would think they could get this part right. I put a bit in it on my blog...it was very annoying

 

 

[mcrowley]

My main mistake was to skin and rivet the rear fuse before fitting the baggage section. If there is somewhere a note saying 'fit the baggage section before fitting the skins', I have not seen it. In the manual, the fitting of the baggage section is part of the last bits to be fitted to the finished rear fuse.My ongoing difficulties (with the baggage section) have been fixing with rivets of that assembly when the manual said so.

Slow learner, I guess?

 

But you're absolutely right, I should have clekoed the whole lot up: I did that, and thought i had finally arrived, but did not include the aileron bar covers...

Additionally, they place the extended baggage compartment in the back of the manual. It seems to me they wrote the section for those who were retrofitting the option. Trying to anticipate the correct build order in the manual can be a bit of a challenge ;-)

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Additionally, they place the extended baggage compartment in the back of the manual. It seems to me they wrote the section for those who were retrofitting the option. Trying to anticipate the correct build order in the manual can be a bit of a challenge ;-)

The extended baggage area was developed for here in OZ I believe Mike also the 4 tanks setup. This is what drove the development. Reg Brost from Aerokits here had a lot to do with it...even the new sliding seats they have in the new versions

 

 

[IBob]

The extended baggage area was developed for here in OZ I believe Mike also the 4 tanks setup. This is what drove the development. Reg Brost from Aerokits here had a lot to do with it...even the new sliding seats they have in the new versions

And excellent innovations, both of them.

Unfortunately, while this is a great evolution of a great little aircraft, the manual, while containing a wealth of information and illustrations, makes the assembly of the aircraft many times more difficult and far slower than it actually needs to be. Especially in the case of those, like myself, who don't have a mate down the road who already built one. The mystery is why ICP and their various agents have not done something about this.

 

And the above is a perfect example:

 

The rear fuselage, relatively recently redesigned, has what must be a fairly new set of instructions. Unfortunately, yet again, the english translation has been carried out by someone with a poor grasp of the language. Has nobody ever pointed this out to them? Anyone?

 

Nevertheless, it is a simple structure and the pictures are good (as they are in much of the manual), so having read the entire section, off we go. It goes together nicely, too, and I work my way carefully through the frame, the positioning of all the skins, then the riveting, as instructed. Info for the order of riveting is only partial, but it all goes well. I move on to the final bits and pieces: tail skid, rear hatch, belly hatch, parachute hatch, all coming together nicely.

 

And the very last item in the assembly instructions: baggage section. Instructions here are for the short baggage section, but this kit has the extended baggage. The instructions for this are at the back of the manual, and the first part to be fitted requires the drilling of dozens of rivet holes from behind a fuselage frame that is inaccessible now the skins are on.

 

And it goes on like this. It's blindingly clear that this all required fitting before the fuse was skinned.

 

For the first time in this build, I actually shut the shed and walked away in disgust.

 

Today the missus will help me turn the fuse on it's back and sides as I find ways to reach the bits I still need to reach.

 

But I did call the guy down the road who is some weeks behind me on his build, and let him know.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Well Bob

 

If you had read all of our posts on all the sav threads and even on my blog I am pretty sure I said the same thing. All the advice was to sit down and read the manual and UNDERSTAND the manual BEFORE you actually build anything. I can tell you putting in the cabin frame and the motor mount in my manual was the same. If you did it as per the manual index you would have had holes you couldnt line up. This didnt happen as I had read the manual quite a few times but I still had trouble with some parts. Everyone spews about the manual and I offered Tom the dealer at the time if he got ICP to give me a S kit I would redo all the manual in correct english and sequence...but alas it didnt happen so everyone still struggles with a sub standard manual

 

 

[IBob]

Well BobIf you had read all of our posts on all the sav threads and even on my blog I am pretty sure I said the same thing. All the advice was to sit down and read the manual and UNDERSTAND the manual BEFORE you actually build anything. I can tell you putting in the cabin frame and the motor mount in my manual was the same. If you did it as per the manual index you would have had holes you couldnt line up. This didnt happen as I had read the manual quite a few times but I still had trouble with some parts. Everyone spews about the manual and I offered Tom the dealer at the time if he got ICP to give me a S kit I would redo all the manual in correct english and sequence...but alas it didnt happen so everyone still struggles with a sub standard manual

Thanks, Kyle. I do see that everyone stumbles around some, however they come at it. It just seems a great pity.

 

In this case, I did both read and understand the manual. What I missed (and what is not stated anywhere) is that while the short baggage compartment can be fitted (I guess?) with the fuse skins on, the extended baggage cannot. Or not easily. So the order of build even in this new section, is incorrect.

 

This all slows and takes the pleasure out of the build, not only in correcting mistakes, but in that the builder is constantly trying to judge and second-guess the info he does have, while moving slowly and uncertainly to try and avoid further mistakes.

 

There are 2 things with these manuals (and I have written a few ops manuals, but nowadays put all that effort into intuitive controls that don't need a manual):

 

First, writing them is an arduous business, requiring a specific set of skills and abilities. It used to be a profession (technical author) and maybe still is.

 

Second, translation used to be done only into the native language of the translator. That seems to have gone by the board nowadays, and this manual is a perfect example of the result.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

The extended baggage compartment is the option not the standard. Also the 4 tanks is the option as well. Both were developed for here in OZ. My manual never said anything at all about 4 tanks at all. I just worked mine out. The aussie kits usually come with those options

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Its a pain in the bum...but in the end Bob you will fall in love with the finished flying product. I do not know any sav owner who just does not absolutely love the performance and the way they fly

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

More speed would be nice but we all know you can not have short field and docile flying ability with fast speed

 

 

[IBob]

Its a pain in the bum...but in the end Bob you will fall in love with the finished flying product. I do not know any sav owner who just does not absolutely love the performance and the way they fly

Yes, I see it's a great aircraft...and I'm really looking forward to the day...and the days that will follow! I'm just venting here, Mark.

 

As someone working in relative isolation, I have also been posting sections of the build in a way that I hope may help other isolated builders.

 

I thought maybe others might add to that, but not so far.

 

 

[rankamateur]

The extended baggage area was developed for here in OZ I believe Mike also the 4 tanks setup. This is what drove the development. Reg Brost from Aerokits here had a lot to do with it...even the new sliding seats they have in the new versions

He also designed the rudder extension that they have adopted in the tail dragger version, as I mentioned previously, we talked about it on the phone one night and about two days later when I turned up over there, he had the parts for the version 2.0 lying on the bench ready to install. His version had more stiffeners in the rear of the fin to support the extra load but when I bought the factory version for my kit it was much simpler, modifying only the top of the rudder.

 

 

[eightyknots]

And excellent innovations, both of them.Unfortunately, while this is a great evolution of a great little aircraft, the manual, while containing a wealth of information and illustrations, makes the assembly of the aircraft many times more difficult and far slower than it actually needs to be. Especially in the case of those, like myself, who don't have a mate down the road who already built one. The mystery is why ICP and their various agents have not done something about this.

And the above is a perfect example:

 

The rear fuselage, relatively recently redesigned, has what must be a fairly new set of instructions. Unfortunately, yet again, the english translation has been carried out by someone with a poor grasp of the language. Has nobody ever pointed this out to them? Anyone?

 

Nevertheless, it is a simple structure and the pictures are good (as they are in much of the manual), so having read the entire section, off we go. It goes together nicely, too, and I work my way carefully through the frame, the positioning of all the skins, then the riveting, as instructed. Info for the order of riveting is only partial, but it all goes well. I move on to the final bits and pieces: tail skid, rear hatch, belly hatch, parachute hatch, all coming together nicely.

 

And the very last item in the assembly instructions: baggage section. Instructions here are for the short baggage section, but this kit has the extended baggage. The instructions for this are at the back of the manual, and the first part to be fitted requires the drilling of dozens of rivet holes from behind a fuselage frame that is inaccessible now the skins are on.

 

And it goes on like this. It's blindingly clear that this all required fitting before the fuse was skinned.

 

For the first time in this build, I actually shut the shed and walked away in disgust.

 

Today the missus will help me turn the fuse on it's back and sides as I find ways to reach the bits I still need to reach.

 

But I did call the guy down the road who is some weeks behind me on his build, and let him know.

I'm sorry that you've had these setbacks. It sounds frustrating .

 

I am surprised to learn that there's another person in the Wairarapa (down the road) building a Savannah. Next year, all going well, I could be the next person "down the road" but, like you, I have to build a shed first.

 

In which town is the other builder?

 

 

[rankamateur]

Hey Hank, Just put your lounge in storage and get in to it!

 

 

[rmorton]

And excellent innovations, both of them.Unfortunately, while this is a great evolution of a great little aircraft, the manual, while containing a wealth of information and illustrations, makes the assembly of the aircraft many times more difficult and far slower than it actually needs to be. Especially in the case of those, like myself, who don't have a mate down the road who already built one. The mystery is why ICP and their various agents have not done something about this.

And the above is a perfect example:

 

The rear fuselage, relatively recently redesigned, has what must be a fairly new set of instructions. Unfortunately, yet again, the english translation has been carried out by someone with a poor grasp of the language. Has nobody ever pointed this out to them? Anyone?

 

Nevertheless, it is a simple structure and the pictures are good (as they are in much of the manual), so having read the entire section, off we go. It goes together nicely, too, and I work my way carefully through the frame, the positioning of all the skins, then the riveting, as instructed. Info for the order of riveting is only partial, but it all goes well. I move on to the final bits and pieces: tail skid, rear hatch, belly hatch, parachute hatch, all coming together nicely.

 

And the very last item in the assembly instructions: baggage section. Instructions here are for the short baggage section, but this kit has the extended baggage. The instructions for this are at the back of the manual, and the first part to be fitted requires the drilling of dozens of rivet holes from behind a fuselage frame that is inaccessible now the skins are on.

 

And it goes on like this. It's blindingly clear that this all required fitting before the fuse was skinned.

 

For the first time in this build, I actually shut the shed and walked away in disgust.

 

Today the missus will help me turn the fuse on it's back and sides as I find ways to reach the bits I still need to reach.

 

But I did call the guy down the road who is some weeks behind me on his build, and let him know.

I thought that the extended baggage area was at the expense of a parachute? I would be interested to see how the two fit? For those hard to get to holes a small child on a stick may help...