Hey!

[stickshaker]

I'm a dreamist pilot from Hervey Bay, QLD. If there was a decent career in aviation it's what I'd be doing, but alas...

 

I've been thinking about buying a plane, although there's a lot of time to sit on it & do lessons before committing to anything. I've got a number of questions:

 

- Rough hangar costs for Hervey bay? I've found there's no landing fees for the airport, no luck finding tie down or hangar costs though

 

- Planes, must be a big difference between Cessna's and co, and Jabiru's? Visually they look about the same, but you're getting a 40 yr old Cessna for the price of a new Jabiru roughly so there must be a lot more than meets the eye

 

- What license level would you need to fly out of Hervey Bay?

 

- How good is travelling/weekends away? I'm just imagining great, fly to some place, but then what? Hire car place is miles away in town, just doesn't work well in reality. This is actually the biggest thing, there needs to be practical applications as simply going up & doing loops of the area - despite it being a nice spot - ultimately isn't going to be a weekly thing thus no point having a plane.

 

 

[stickshaker]

One thing that seems good is resale value. If you buy a $70k car and sell it in 5 years, you'll get $30k if you're lucky. With planes it seems like you'll get not that far off what you paid?

 

 

[mnewbery]

Sadly but simply it is about the right plane for the mission.

 

If you have a mission then you can say what plane you need. There is an old saying that goes "one fast, one slow, one upside down".

 

These are the only three planes anyone needs. Mostly the ministry for war and finance only allows for one so the pilot needs to decide which is the most important. So for example if it was just you going long distances, maybe an RV-10, Mooney or Beech Debonair. These are quite a bit faster than a J-230 which is why even 40 years later a Beech costs what it does. Having a newer Beech in the high $300s doesn't hurt the maths either. Mooney is well supported but went out of production for s while. RV-10 is a builders plane. These are not endorsements of any make or model.

 

Upside down planes do best when stored in hangars and like to eat money.

 

That leaves the sight seeing or training plane. Genuine retro (cub, champ, C150 and other cessnas, Cherokee etc) newer or plastic (J160, Super cub, sportstar, zephyr, new warrior etc). These are not endorsements of any make or model.

 

Is flying into controlled airspace a consideration?

 

What are you going to do FIRST? If it's touring around there are plenty of places that cater for flying visitors and the local hotel will often send someone to collect you if they know you are coming. You just need to ask.

 

 

[stickshaker]

I'm not sure, is Hervey Bay controlled? From what I can tell under 8500 feet seems ok along the whole east coast area. If not, at least until I have a number of hours up I wouldn't. Do all hours count towards a license or only hours with instructor? It was a bit hard to take it all in, I do remember the rec license being ~20 hrs whereas instruments, controlled airspace were a lot more hours.

 

That's good to hear, most of the time it would be just around the area, however if we can do 'weekends away' it'll give a lot more practical uses. I've had a look and we do have some family with an airport close by so that'd be a lot more fun than driving!

 

 

[mnewbery]

ERSA says Hervey Bay is a certified aerodrome operating on a common terminal area frequency. Not a towered aerodrome.

 

https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/pending/ersa/FAC_YHBA_26-May-2016.pdf

 

Bundaberg visual navigation chart (VNC) says controlled airspace steps start at Gladstone on the way to Rockhampton or south towards Sunshine Coast. It also shows the airfields for places like Maryborough, Cooloola Cove, Rainbow Beach and a bunch of other places people south of the Tweed would love to be able to day trip. None of these require much beyond a phone call to let them know you are coming and check to see if the runway is serviceable (and the ability to land there safely)

 

 

[facthunter]

I'd do a bit of flying and a lot of hanging around active places with your ears open before thinking about a plane unless you already have a good and specific reason to use one. If you are just putting a toe in the water, call in at all active dromes in your area or wherever you go, and check the scene. Do a TIF (or two) and see what you think. RAAus planes are not permitted to do aerobatics and a specialised plane doing aero's, is more expensive to operate than a normal one. (Has more inspections). If you think you like aeros do some with a competent aero pilot. You can log any reasonable flying in any type of plane. Try gliding or a trike. Don't limit yourself Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

Welcome stickshaker.

 

If you want to get into flying, there are two ways for normal flying apart from gliding and weight shift etc.

 

RAAus which is what this site is mainly about. It lets you fly RAus rego planes, no night flight, no controlled airspace, no aerobatics, only one passenger and a few other limitations, but it is good for fun flying.

 

GA which requires a pilots licence and that takes a bit more training. With that you will be allowed to take more passengers, can do aerobatics if trained and also night flight and controlled airspace entry. Plius you can go on to instrument rated flight.

 

RAAus is the least expensive of the two options, requiring less money for training, but also cheaper maintenance costs and medicals.

 

Either way you will need an ASIC card to fly in and out of Hervey bay.

 

One of the joys of flying is going to fly ins and there are a few in the Hervey bay area. Childers is near and I think it is fairly active.

 

Wether you fly or not, if you have any interest in flying try to get to The Old Station at the end of this month. There will be many pilots there, plus a horde of planes of all types and sizes. No doubt there will also be several of the people who post on this site. Look for the little old bloke with the RV4 rego FOU, that is French for mad.

 

 

[stickshaker]

For sure, most likely I'd set something like 6 months of training & hiring, at the end of that if I'm doing enough hours to justify then can look at buying. It's a bit more expensive to buy and not use then say a gym membership :D

 

Thanks for the info about ASIC, that didn't even cross my mind.

 

Yep only interested in RAAus at the moment, more restrictive but far easier for a casual. Although, definetely want to follow through with training and doing proper flight SIM practice (not oh no overshooting runway, just nose down into vertical dive and level out right at the end stuff I usually do!) before going off on any adventures.

 

Stunts would be fun, that'd be more as a hobby/with someone tandem. Can't afford a stunt plane, let alone what I imagine the insurance would run on them.

 

Ideally there'd be some way of picking up $10k of work a year to cover a fair bit of the cost and get quality hours experience at the start, however short of instructor training I can't find too many avenues like that, seems more all or nothing than 'freelance work'.

 

 

[Nightmare]

RAA restrictive? Not in my opinion, there is a lot of uncontrolled airspace out there, and we are allowed to fly in it. When you learn to read aviation charts, you will be pleasantly surprised just where you can fly.

 

Overshooting runways???? Do the training and you will not do that! BTW, no flight sim that I've seen comes even close to real flying.

 

Wouldn't you be better off getting your certificate or be close to getting your certificate before buying a plane?

 

- How good is travelling/weekends away? I'm just imagining great, fly to some place, but then what? Hire car place is miles away in town, just doesn't work well in reality. This is actually the biggest thing, there needs to be practical applications as simply going up & doing loops of the area - despite it being a nice spot - ultimately isn't going to be a weekly thing thus no point having a plane.

Like with any trip, be it road, flying or otherwise, it will only be as good as your research and planning.

 

Dreamist Pilot, I'm assuming that you don't have your RPC or RPL or similar licence and are considering getting one, so if so why don't you start living the dream? Maybe contact your local RAA flying school, maybe in Hervey Bay or Maryborough, and start with a TIF (Trial Introductory Flight) which counts as hours in your log book. The hardest step towards your pilot certificate is your first one.

 

 

[stickshaker]

Overshooting runways, in MS Flight :) Quite easy to do, often too short or too long. Flight SIMs seem harder because it's not "real".

 

Definetely, until I have a license I wouldn't buy a plane.

 

The difference being with a car I can drive around on arrival. Seems if you fly somewhere you'd often be stuck once landed.

 

I've done a trial flight and it was good, I would have been a pilot after school but for some reason air force said no, then I asked someone else later and they said my scores were all good so they don't know why I was rejected (in what you'd call, "stage one" I guess. Went for a day, did tests and whatnot). And here we are years later.

 

 

[Nightmare]

Overshooting? Carry on with your flight training and you will learn how to land a plane. Your instructor will teach you how to set up a good approach, judge the round-out, and fly it down to the touchdown.

 

As I said, research and plan your trip, including what you are going to do at the destination and how you are going to achieve it, this includes local transport options and accommodation if applicable. The internet is a wonderful thing. I'm about to embark on getting my xc endorsement to be able to do this very soon, I'm studying the material now.... I'm looking at some interesting trips like Great Keppel Island, Fraser Island, Hervey Bay, among other destinations.

 

So you were rejected for the RAAF? Don't let that bother you, they reject a lot of people. Join us others who wanted to fly and just pay for it, you can do it a lesson at a time, you will not regret it. Learning aviation is awesome from start to finish. Careful though, once the aviation bug bites, it doesn't let you go

 

 

[stickshaker]

No training to date, I just play around in a simulator from time to time. I have done an hour flight but it was all very basics.

 

Sometimes with missions the planes change around so it can be hard to judge the right height, speed and so forth. It all works out fine, in real life the plane would be pretty stressed! + some passengers who aren't coming back haha.

 

More that if I was accepted, most likely that would be what I'd be doing. At a slightly faster speed!

 

 

[Nightmare]

You have to start with the basics. To become an effective pilot you need to understand how your aircraft works and the environment in which you fly and the forces involved. It took me 10 months of flight training before my CFI said to me, "Congratulations captain, you are now a pilot" It is a long but rewarding road to travel. I had a heap of fun getting there, and I continue to have fun every time I climb into the cockpit. I'd encourage you to take that second step, and book your next lesson. Yes, it may seem to you very basic, but it is essential stuff that you have to know as a pilot, and believe me it is not in anyway boring.

 

A TIF is the start of your flight training, you can use that flight as your first entry in your log book.

 

A flight simulator is really nothing like the real thing, you just don't feel the forces on the controls that you you do in the real thing. I found it to be helpful in my early stage of training, I'd review what I was taught the previous lesson. But now, I don't use the sims at all, the real thing is just too awesome.

 

 

[stickshaker]

I'm overseas for a while still. I did a TIF last year. There is tons of information on the internet, might have to look if there's a "structure training plan", as who knows where to start! I could do 6 months of theory and practice in a little Cessna in X-Plane, should hit the ground running later.

 

 

[Nightmare]

I'm overseas for a while still. I did a TIF last year. There is tons of information on the internet, might have to look if there's a "structure training plan", as who knows where to start! I could do 6 months of theory and practice in a little Cessna in X-Plane, should hit the ground running later.

In my opinion, that is not a great idea, as you may have to unlearn a lot of bad habits that you could develop learning like that, better just turning up to your Flight School like a clean slate keen to learn.Maybe invest in a couple of books if you want to learn a bit prior to starting training. I would suggest "Flying Training Manual" and "Basic Aeronautical Knowledge including Human Factors" by David Robson. These two books also come included in a Student Pilot Kit, also included in this kit are, a book, "Flight Radio for Pilots" and a logbook. I got this kit from my school at the beginning of my training. It contains all the info you need to get through your flight training for a RAA RPC. They are actually designed for people going for their PPL, so you are getting a very good standard of instruction from these books. Others could suggest other material, but I found this kit totally sufficient and easy to read. In the "Flying Training Manual", the author even sets out the chapters in the order that you will be doing your lessons in so you can study that chapter prior to the actual lesson. You can purchase this kit at most pilot shops in Australia, and online. I found one online shop that sells them: http://www.flightstore.com.au/books-theory-aviation-theory-centre-c-104_106/student-pilot-kit-p-87.html

 

 

[stickshaker]

From what I could tell in google, a lot of the theory involved weather, human factors (which is interesting, has been touched on in the Air Crash series) and so forth - general theory. Relevant but not 'actual flying skills'. These would be good things to learn?

 

I couldn't actually find a syllabus - if there even is one - with what's covered.

 

I did find this: http://pilot.ftaonline.com.au/guide/FTAONLINE-GUIDE.pdf

 

Shows Rec/Private/Commerical differences.

 

Seems very comprehensive compared to most flying schools I saw. The flying school websites vary quite a lot in flying & theory time included, hard to know the real values.

 

I did send an email to the closest flying school which is in Maryborough to find out what's involved, did some googling and he seems to be good & active in the community which is great. Though still a while off before I can do any of that.

 

 

[Nightmare]

Look at the RAA website https://www.raa.asn.au/ The Operations Manual for Pilots is a useful document covering air law and flight training requirements. The RAA Syllabus: https://members.raa.asn.au/storage/syllabus-of-flight-training-issue-7-v2-single-pages.pdf

 

I'm not sure if you can access the Syllabus pdf, as you may have to be a member. But the one you posted looked more in depth, a higher level of licence, RPL and higher. Just remember:

 

RPC is covered by RAAus. The 3 axis certificate entitles you to fly an aircraft that has a MTOW of 600kg or less(650kg if it is a float plane), with 2 seats or less in VFR and not in controlled airspace.

 

RPL and higher these restrictions are lifted depending on your training achieved

 

 

[stickshaker]

Perfect!

 

 

[Nightmare]

sorry, I edited my last post as you were reading it

 

 

[stickshaker]

Thanks.

 

Someone had mentioned you can get flight instructor rating for RPC, the ones I can find require commercial licenses. Is there information about that?

 

Anything further would be a while off just good to know.

 

Edit: I mean, I can find lots of threads talking about it, just no schools with the info about getting it. Such as:

 

"Do your self a favour - spend the extra $$ on decent training (even a "quicky" instructor rating should be 30 hours flying and 6 weeks theory - more would be better). You will only realise that it is money well spent when you finish."

 

Surely you'd need more than 30 hrs flying and 6 weeks theory to teach people? That is "one chapter ahead in the book" style! You're meant to do 100 hrs log book just to even drive a car on your own.

 

I'd spend more time & effort getting something more advanced if I could turn it into a paid hobby. Thankfully I can shuffle work hrs around (IT), so no hassle to work til 2pm, do a lesson, then work a few more hrs afterwards. Whereas the inconsistency would be difficult if it was only income.

 

 

[Nightmare]

Have a look at that flight syllabus document that I linked for you, and the Ops Manual on the RAA site for the requirements for flight instructor and CFI. I believe the hours required to commence instructor training is more like 100 hours or more. I'd be more concerned with learning to fly first, they should be goals well down the track.

 

 

[stickshaker]

Closest FIR I could find is ~200km away which is a bit of a hike.

 

For sure, however I like to plan out all the options before deciding which path to take. Also relates to the work I do (what can we do now, what can we sort later, what can we add later with little overhead vs what will be a large expense to change course and so forth. Map out all the options, pros & cons, make decision. A bit of planning now saves a mountain of headache later). I have always liked the procedural side of things. Logic makes sense, and gives a good feeling of control :) I only wing things that are still controllable - like sure, rock up to a foreign country with 0 plans, but if you have your passport & money, nothing is a problem. It's a controllable 'no plan'. Not a no plan, no plan!

 

 

[Nightmare]

Just remember, the R in RPC stands for Recreational, so it is not intended for you to make money from, it is in the Ops Manual as a condition of the certificate. As you mentioned though, you can go on to make money as an instructor.

 

It can be a stepping stone to higher licences. It is not much of a step from RPC to RPL, then you need a PPL then CPL. I know you can make money at CPL. Then ATPL if you want to fly the heavy metal. I'm not sure if you can do jobs like RFDS or aviation jobs in the surveying fields on PPL, you'd have to check it out.

 

I went RPC as I wanted to do it as a hobby, and it is the most cost effective way for me to get into the air. I have no desire to make it into a career, my thought is that if I made it my job, I would loose the passion for something I like doing.

 

BTW, what does FIR stand for?

 

 

[stickshaker]

Flight Instructor Rating from what I saw. The industry has a LOT of abbreviations!

 

Really I'd rather do nothing, however it'll be hard to go up often paying out of pocket as it's quite an expensive hobby. If there was a way to gain experience, or cover the a significant amount of the costs that'd be great. Pretty much like everyone which is a big reason why the pay is peanuts!

 

 

[Nightmare]

My friend, are you on the right forum site? This is a recreational flying forum, we are not in it for the money, but for the love of flying....