The XPB Stage 1 underway.

[Pilot Pete]

This is not a timber plane Byron, so the story of nails isn't rveting enough.

 

All this carry on would be enough to test his mettle though

 

 

[Marty_d]

Let's hope he has the nuts to see it through!

 

 

[SDQDI]

I would rudder get back on topic

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I would rudder get back on topic

Setting up for a bit of fiber'glassing the next few days, ran some sample tests this afternoon for hardener ratios etc, all good.

 

First time I've used PVA glue as a release agent, albeit I'm fairly safe on new metal surfaces otherwise, but going warily, will know in the morning.

 

 

[Speedsta]

Hi Bex,

 

As you probably know there are two types of pva, with polyvinyl acetate being wood glue and polyvinyl alcohol amongst other things is used as a release agent.

 

 

[Pilot Pete]

Let's hope he has the nuts to see it through!

I've had enough.... I'm gonna bolt

 

 

[turboplanner]

You need to wax the mould as well as apply the PVA; PVA shears most of the time, but the wax avoids those last few places sticking together,

 

 

[waraton]

Depending on your perspextive these puns are crazing. I can see through the cracks in them but only just and frankly they only serve to diffuse highlights of this terrific thread.

 

 

[Pilot Pete]

Sorry Bex, but it seems this thread has been hijacked by the funny brigade.

 

Not to be outdone...... I've found it to all be very aluminating

 

 

[kasper]

You need to wax the mould as well as apply the PVA; PVA shears most of the time, but the wax avoids those last few places sticking together,

And you need to set out clearly your post cure heat cure processes to get he best out of your epoxy or vinyl especially when it is attached to a metal internal frame and exposed to sun.

Lots of fun to be had.

 

And mold release on flat sheet aluminium as a creator of flat stock (I assume what you are doing) will be fine with PVA release OR just hard wax. I prefer to wax only ali sheeting when making up thin flat skins for use in glass/foam/glass composite skins.

 

I lay premade outer flat skins into curved leading edge molds - 'glue' foam to the back of the outer skin and vac form the foam sheet into it with the secondary inner skins made in situ as part of the vac process as a one go makes final leading edge. Very light and strong and when heat treated very stable.

 

Have fun

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Hi Bex,As you probably know there are two types of pva, with polyvinyl acetate being wood glue and polyvinyl alcohol amongst other things is used as a release agent.

No I didn't know, tastes the same to me... hmmm, alcohol you say ......

 

By the way, I can't actually read Chinese so it is what it is.

 

You need to wax the mould as well as apply the PVA;

 

And you need .....

Always wax down first, thanks for the notes. Very safe on new, shiny, flat metal surfaces anyway.

 

I've actually been glassing all my life, made my first skateboard at 14 years old using a few of those 'fiberglass repair kits' you used to be able to buy at hardware stores - but always welcome input thanks.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

And mold release on flat sheet aluminium as a creator of flat stock (I assume what you are doing)

No, the outer skin is flat, duh, but the inner forms vertical and diagonal bracing. The inner is adhered to the outer while sandwiching the longerons as in this representation ...

 

 

 

 

[kasper]

No, the outer skin is flat, duh, but the inner forms vertical and diagonal bracing. The inner is adhered to the outer while sandwiching the longerons as in this representation ...[ATTACH=full]46648[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=full]46647[/ATTACH]

If you are going that way then I would suggest pre-making the outer skin, heavily etching the ali section and vac forming the inner skin over foam ribs and the ali section - it then all becomes 1 very stable section. And as the sides can be vac pulled into a nice curve that can be pre-built in reducing the stress in the final pull on assembly - bonus is a fully rivet free outer on the side panels.

The absolute last thing you want to try is pulling a bend on one of those panels after riveting a fiberglass sheet onto them - it WILL tear all the glass around each rivet - bonding in under vac bag in a fixture/mold that is the curve will work much better - just remember that you MUST heat treat and fully cure the skins and joints before releasing the vacuum or it will also be tears before bedtime as the springback in the ali flattens them.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

If you are going that way then I would suggest ....

Thanks for your effort, your system is faultless, highly suggest-able for a manufacturer (complete craft) or a one off build, it however doesn't quite fit with my kit parameters for flat packing, cost, 51% amateur build rules and a few other structural integrations.

 

Seriously appreciate your post though.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Got a late mid arvo start today, but happy to get a side done before dinner anyway, the first layer always being the hardest of course. Rinse and repeat tomorrow for the other side.

 

Hmm let me see, it's the left side you're looking at.

 

In case you're not sure what's happening here, I made a pattern that became a mold to make a pattern to become a mold to make a mold to make parts, simple eh!

 

 

 

 

[Subsonic]

I'm confused now by this build. Is this now a fiberglass aircraft or are you just making skins for the metal structure you have already built? Bex, can you share the plan here?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I'm confused now by this build. Is this now a fiberglass aircraft or are you just making skins for the metal structure you have already built?

Mixture of both. The predominant structural strength is still metal.

 

 

[Downunder]

Pre made fibreglass parts are ok but if I was required (as a builder) to join/mold parts in a predominantly metal aircraft, that would put me off purchasing it in the first place.......

 

You have those who want to build a metal plane and those who want to build a glass plane.

 

Put you project in the middle and no ones happy.

 

 

[Litespeed]

Bex,

 

Man what are you up to now?

 

I agree- a metal aircraft should be metal with the bare minimum of other materials.

 

I expected the skins would be match holed alloy sheet.

 

Please explain your rationale?

 

Phil

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Pre made fibreglass parts are ok but if I was required (as a builder) to join/mold parts

Not required at all, I am trying to make life simpler, faster, cheaper, easier, and less stressful, not harder.

 

The only difference is the side panels would be 'glass, nothing else. Turtledeck, floor, wings, structure, all still metal. Of course typical 'glass parts are still there, nose, instrument panel, some canopy bits, etc.

 

No one would even know.

 

You have those who want to build a metal plane and those who want to build a glass plane.

 

Bex,I agree- a metal aircraft should be metal with the bare minimum of other materials.

And I agree that half to one third the price of anything else out there will appease at least somebody.

 

The 'glass makes it very easy to meet up some internal structural hardpoints and also the sides need to be on early and thin aluminum is at great risk of damage for the typical build time and movement around the shed that a kit sees.

 

Maybe you guys should explain to me why planes should be individually restricted to one material?

 

 

[flyerme]

Ahh the ol saying

 

"Work smarter not harder"

 

Great work bex

 

 

[Downunder]

Maybe you guys should explain to me why planes should be individually restricted to one material?

If you want to include pre made glass parts then fine, no probs.

 

If I was making a metal and glass aircraft would I need all the tools, knowledge and skills to make a metal plane AND all the tools knowledge and skills to make a glass plane?

 

Clecos, riveter etc AND pots, mixers, resins, etc.

 

Would I then need temperature controlled environments, assembly/curing times?

 

Someone wanting to build a metal plane is going to hate the glassing and vice versa........and if you thew in some wood, I couldn't see you selling anything....

 

 

[apm]

If you want to include pre made glass parts then fine, no probs.If I was making a metal and glass aircraft would I need all the tools, knowledge and skills to make a metal plane AND all the tools knowledge and skills to make a glass plane?

 

Clecos, riveter etc AND pots, mixers, resins, etc.

 

Would I then need temperature controlled environments, assembly/curing times?

 

Someone wanting to build a metal plane is going to hate the glassing and vice versa........and if you thew in some wood, I couldn't see you selling anything....

Hmmm. Maybe I'm abnormal then!

My plane has chromemoly frame, fiberglass skin & control surfaces, aluminium wings, timber floor, even some fabric under the rear fuselage. To top it off I built the engine, a 200hp rotary & built in tip tanks for total 210 litres.

 

I was talked out of carving a prop though, but not next time!!

 

Suppose its the diference between builders who enjoy the process and those with no confidence in learning skills.

 

Andrew

 

Lightwing SP4000

 

 

[bexrbetter]

If you want to include pre made glass parts then fine, no probs.

Of course.

 

If I was making a metal and glass aircraft would I need all the tools, knowledge and skills to make a metal plane

I use nothing more than common shed tools, and it's planned as such.

 

all the tools knowledge and skills to make a glass plane?

pots, mixers, resins, etc.

 

Would I then need temperature controlled environments, assembly/curing times?

Absolutely not. Any of the 'glass items have the same tools applied to them as the metal.

 

At the very most, because of the 51% rule, you may have to bond the outer and inner together yourself which would require nothing more than 50ml of resin in a paper cup, couple of drops of hardener, stir with a paint brush and paint onto the surfaces and then bring together. Please don't tell me you have never mixed Araldite A and B and glued something together, and it really is that easy.

 

Anyway, I'm not about making people's lives difficult, my aim is developing completely Newbie user friendly build methods that are not only logical and dummy proof, but satisfying while achieving your 51% also. It has to be like this to attract people, not drive them away.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Hmmm. Maybe I'm abnormal then!

Maybe you just do things your way while not listening to "Experts".

 

You should go to a few forums I could name and learn that all the stuff you have done can't be done.

 

Apparently.

 

Suppose its the diference between builders who enjoy the process and those with no confidence in learning skills.

There's plenty of people who haven't had the chance to learn various skill sets and they need to be catered for or they won't get a chance to enter into the sport, and we all suffer.

 

One reason Vans is successful is because they cater to and guide that group very well, and good on them for that, they deserve the success they have despite being a bit expensive and having 1500 to 2500hr build times (i.e. years).