RAAus Constitution Reform Result

[turboplanner]

This is a forum; what's wrong with someone offering his opinion?

 

That's more interesting than having to read the repetitive "stand for a position then" from people who don't have an original thought in their body.

 

FT has raised a valid point; the secret policy of not promoting the Association seems to have backfired, and what the, now ex, board members have done is preside over a major drop in income at a time the Association could least afford it - a very telling disclosure.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I dont believe there was a formal policy of not promoting the organisation. There was a policy of updating systems and processes so that a repeat of the failed audits where records were missing, or not originally provided, could never happen again.

 

When a board, and the implementing staff have 100% capacity loaded and you choose to limit yourself to those things already in progress, then that to me is not choosing as a mater of policy to not promote the organisation, merely acknowledging that tbe list of things we would like to do exceeds our capacity to do them. At no stage while i was there did we ever decide to not promote the organisation.

 

Looking back it was still the right decision, systems have been replaced and despite the odd teething issue have moved us forward as we expected.... got an SMS the otherday saying membership due for renewal and how to do it. Staff involvement in the renewal process sofar NIL. Expected staff involvement in the process at the end will also be NIL. Record accuracy will be as good as i the member providing the info make it. The old way even if i used the online renewal then staff were involved the whole way, even the eftpos transaction was manual.

 

Trying to build a mansion out of a shack with no foundations is likely to be a disaster unless you see to the foundations first. Thats what we did, and if time over would do again.

 

I agree that in an ideal world a drop in membership is not ideal, however with the changes made we are more efficient and better able to deal with increases in numbers that are likely just around the corner when the MTOW that RAAus handles increases. Space ships however, with the membership increases they will bring are likely a bit further out and i guess the org can worry itself about them later......

 

Andy

 

 

[gandalph]

This is a forum; what's wrong with someone offering his opinion?That's more interesting than having to read the repetitive "stand for a position then" from people who don't have an original thought in their body.

FT has raised a valid point; the secret policy of not promoting the Association seems to have backfired, and what the, now ex, board members have done is preside over a major drop in income at a time the Association could least afford it - a very telling disclosure.

A little bit edgy this morning Turbs? Hadn't had the morning coffee when you hit the keys? Your jibe about not having an original thought in my body... that was severe! I'm not sure I'll recover from that one. Do,you perchance write Bills' Zingers for him?

However I am glad that you have come out in favour of free speech. I fully support a persons right to offer an opinion and FT has offered heaps. My suggestion was that he should consider stepping out from under his bushel and putting his ideas on how the RAA should be run into practice. He, like you, has offered many opinions on ways that the RAA could do better. Perhaps you could both stand as the progeressive reform team. How could you take umbrage at that?

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...if faced with a choice of believing in conspiracy or a stuff-up as the cause of a situation, a stuff-up will be found to be the real cause in almost all cases'...

Sadly true, Oscar. An Australian policeman spent years investigating the Kennedy Assasination and found a good case for "stuff up": a poorly-trained, sleep-deprived Secret Service agent sitting in the car behind the president was carrying a new self loading rifle down next to his leg. When the shooting started he pulled it out, accidentally discharging the "magic bullet".

The ensuing coverup led to the "Grassy Knoll" conspiracy theory. Much more interesting...

 

...The suggestion that the Board, as a whole, could be led by the nose by a few of its members into willfully harming the organisation, beggars belief...

But then again, maybe our board contains a couple of the most intelligent manipulators on the planet...

 

 

[Admin]

It is interesting to note that I believe that discussing the RAAus Constitutional Reform has had a dramatic negative impact on our site's rankings. We had been ranked at around the 425,000th web site in the world and now we have slipped to around 660,000th in the world. Still miles ahead of RAA's new site ranking at 2 millionth and slowly falling back. Remember it is so much harder to increase in rankings as your ranking increases. To put that into perspective, Google is No 1 and the first 500 is all the Google sub sites and all the other high usage sites...FEDEX is around 480. Now these are general sites and for a specific subject site such as recreational aviation based in Australia to be ranked so high in the whole world is an incredible achievement...especially to have been at 425,000th.

 

 

You can see by the graph that in early March when the whole constitutional change started to get a lot of momentum we took a big hit. This tells me a lot especially when a lot of strong debate takes hold of the site. I believe we need to consider getting back to our roots, talk about recreational flying, our aircraft, our trips and the fun and joys of recreational flying whilst promoting the more social aspects of flying. Anyway, you will see some changes coming soon to this site with this in mind.

 

I had to laugh at the figures the CEO put up about the RAA website in Saturday's meeting. I recall he said their site was getting around 35k hits a month...well that is a drop in the ocean compared to what this site gets at around a quarter of a MILLION but hits on a web site are so yesterday as they mean nothing. You need to look at all the other metrics to make sense of 'hits'. For example Time on Site (Recreational Flying is over 11mins average per user on site), the Bounce Rate - you could have 35k hits with a 80% bounce rate which means 80% of the people coming to the site have done so by mistake...and many more real metrics which is what web site owners use these days and not hits. So, how does a quarter of a million hits mean anything when you have around 3,000 UNIQUE visitors looking at your site everyday at an average of around 11mins a time...they are metrics about how successful a site is, not hits. Also note that each time a search engine looks at a component of a site, they are regarded as a hit and Baidu is the biggest culprit in increasing hits and Baidu is for Asia. So in reality you can have say 300 unique people look at a site in a whole month and have 35k hits, easily.

 

We only use industry trusted and respected 3rd party sources for our metrics here...as they say Lies, Damned lies and Statistics which I felt was being portrayed by the CEO at Saturday's meeting.

 

Another element is that if my memory serves me correct 4 years ago we had around $2m in cash reserves plus the office building. Now we only have $1m in cash reserve and the $700k for the building. We have lost a million dollars in that time plus a so called reduction in membership of around 20%. I feel I and the members have been led up the garden path but I am willing to give it 12 months, and support the changes for that time to see a turn around on everything and if not then it was just ALL Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.

 

 

[turboplanner]

A little bit edgy this morning Turbs? Hadn't had the morning coffee when you hit the keys? Your jibe about not having an original thought in my body... that was severe! I'm not sure I'll recover from that one. Do,you perchance write Bills' Zingers for him?However I am glad that you have come out in favour of free speech. I fully support a persons right to offer an opinion and FT has offered heaps. My suggestion was that he should consider stepping out from under his bushel and putting his ideas on how the RAA should be run into practice. He, like you, has offered many opinions on ways that the RAA could do better. Perhaps you could both stand as the progeressive reform team. How could you take umbrage at that?

I don't like the bullying, and that goes for the attacks on Keith Page and Bill Woodford; and I don't like the pathetic wriggling pretence that it wasn't meant or that I might not have had my morning coffee; there are plenty of nasty sites around if that's the sort of activity people want.

 

 

[Keith Page]

Thank you Turbo.. I am expecting that treatment as I am endeavour to get the truth to surface. You know when one whacks the critters enough they leak truth.

 

The most interesting post was Rod and he was answered with """Lies"""". I am stuck here as he would have made his statement on his side of truth so with that in mind all the statements made on this forum regard the constitution would come under lies and need verifying as to who is tell the undistorted truth.

 

Now for the big one I suspect very much that there was a campaign of soliciting a YES vote out of all and sundry, but proving it will be impossible. Gathered by other little snipets outside this forum.

 

No mention of the financial situation, or are they hoping no one will ask?

 

Regards

 

KP

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Keith

 

log into your RAAus account on the RAA.asn.au website, look under governance then reports and you'll see that a six month finance report as at the end of December 2015 was provided. I know its 5 months old and a new one is due shortly....but its not overdue...so don't understand your issues. Not going to repost it here, everyone who is a member has online access to it if they need to

 

Andy

 

 

[Spriteah]

Keithlog into your RAAus account on the RAA.asn.au website, look under governance then reports and you'll see that a six month finance report as at the end of December 2015 was provided. I know its 5 months old and a new one is due shortly....but its not overdue...so don't understand your issues. Not going to repost it here, everyone who is a member has online access to it if they need to

 

Andy

Such hard work. Imagine that, we actually provide financial reports these days!!! Yes money has been spent on software development and compliance required by CASA. For so many years members used to complain about money in the bank. During my tenure I started to correct that by spending some. Something you occasionally have to do in a large NFP.

 

Of course some of the members here cannot do that Andy. And I use the term members in relation to the forums as some are not members of RAAus but they feel they have a voice as to how it should be run.

 

 

[coljones]

Such hard work. Imagine that, we actually provide financial reports these days!!! Yes money has been spent on software development and compliance required by CASA. For so many years members used to complain about money in the bank. During my tenure I started to correct that by spending some. Something you occasionally have to do in a large NFP.Of course some of the members here cannot do that Andy. And I use the term members in relation to the forums as some are not members of RAAus but they feel they have a voice as to how it should be run.

There should be a tag that displays a big cheer and a pat on the back. You done well, Jim

 

 

[Admin]

Of course some of the members here cannot do that Andy. And I use the term members in relation to the forums as some are not members of RAAus but they feel they have a voice as to how it should be run

I have an idea how to fix that but RAAus would need to assist me in that...wonder if they are still talking to me

 

 

[fly_tornado]

So Jim is there a secret plan to recover the RAA's lost members?

 

 

[facthunter]

Do you still beat your wife? Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

For those that focus on membership numbers declining as a bad thing then I think in the next 18 months you will see a change. RAAUS has intentionally not promoted for membership because of the bad state its office was in.

Jim.

[Spriteah]

Yes. But it is secret.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Jim, it's funnier when you're not a member

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

The way to increase member numbers is to keep costs low. My only problem with professional staff is their cost.When I started gliding in the late 60's, gliding was by far the cheapest flying. There were very few paid people involved.

 

Time passed, and gliders became seen by the government as sporting goods, attracting a sales tax of 26% . Aircraft were seen as different with no sales tax.

 

This had the result that in 1998, a Jabiru plus a hangar ( both in kit form) was cheaper than the SALES TAX on a new glider. That's when the big growth in RAAus took place and the big fall in gliding began.

 

Now we in RAAus have an awful government impost ... CASA compliance costs. The trouble with the ex-airforce CASA executives is that they have no understanding of what its like to have to pay for things out of their own pockets. They are used to endless taxpayer dollars .

 

It is hard to see how RAAus can keep costs to members down but they have to try. Keeping the paid staff from thinking like CASA will be difficult. Left to their inclinations, I can imagine executives agreeing to things like airline-priced transponders with overpriced annual inspections. They will argue that "safety" is priceless, and they can do this without paying anything from their own pockets.

 

Here's my proposal... any cost increase inflicted on members is also docked from the executive pay packets.

 

 

[storchy neil]

so some have just woken up to the facts that raa is in a lot of shit whoopy dooo tried to tell you that since 2009 but have not been listen to but that is not one persons fault it is the members off the organization who let the administration get away with it cant be bothered with politics just want to fly me air craft well you wont be able to if

 

unless you have walked in my shoes you have no clue what I personal went through because off the miss management off our association

 

notice I use the word our association you and I have to sell it to keep it at a profesional level if we don't then it will fall in a heap

 

at the moment we are operating under two sets of bloody rules cassa and raa lets get this organization up to a professional standard that we can have our own rules and regulation now way can it happen if you and I are not prepared to cop a lot flack as I see it nobody is lying or miss leading anyone just their thoughts on the subject

 

this is a forum that has discussed many issues good bad and bloody ridiculous opinions is what is needed so that we can improve

 

a casa audit is proof that we as a organization need more dilegance to the running off the whole show not by one or ten I mean the 9500 members

 

neil

 

 

[Keith Page]

Keithlog into your RAAus account on the RAA.asn.au website, look under governance then reports and you'll see that a six month finance report as at the end of December 2015 was provided. I know its 5 months old and a new one is due shortly....but its not overdue...so don't understand your issues. Not going to repost it here, everyone who is a member has online access to it if they need to

 

Andy

Andy you have answered it for me, by dodging the question.

Just wondering if there is some up to date financial snippets about.

 

Heard on the grape vine costs have blown out just wondering by how much, 5 months ago is not the correct answer.

 

Regards,

 

KP

 

 

[turboplanner]

Such hard work. Imagine that, we actually provide financial reports these days!!! Yes money has been spent on software development and compliance required by CASA. For so many years members used to complain about money in the bank. During my tenure I started to correct that by spending some. Something you occasionally have to do in a large NFP.

Great work.

 

Of course some of the members here cannot do that Andy.

For people who are not RAA members, they of course shouldn't be expecting internal figures (I wasn't aware Keith was not a member); the annual financial reports of the Incorporated Association were adequate for a non-member, and presumably there will be an equal or more detailed report available through ASIC in the future.

 

And I use the term members in relation to the forums as some are not members of RAAus but they feel they have a voice as to how it should be run.

If non-members have been contacting Recreational Aviation Australia, Inc and telling employees and/or board members how to run the business, that's a fair comment, but if you are coming on to another person's site and taking a swipe at people having their own discussions you might want to think about the importance of non members to the RAA and its successor.

The numbers are quite large, and range from aircraft manufacturers, infrastructure owners, financiers, accessory marketers, Ministerial and Member staff, and people who maintain an interest, perhaps like myself who were in RA, now currently in GA, and possibly again in RA. There are communication channels and resources in that group which can be of great importance to the Association/Company out in the open or behind the scenes; the value is far greater than a momentary contact made when there's a problem.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Andy you have answered it for me, by dodging the question.Just wondering if there is some up to date financial snippets about.

Heard on the grape vine costs have blown out just wondering by how much, 5 months ago is not the correct answer.

 

Regards,

 

KP

How could I dodge the question? ........Your inference is that I know the answer and I'm avoiding telling you....Let me be clear Today I have no more knowledge of the state of the associations financials than you do.....The comment about Sport Pilot uptake being only 50% of expected....we'll that was reported in the minutes for the last association meeting(the one before Saturday just gone) so it's hardly a secret and I personally wouldn't describe it as the grape vine.....

 

I don't expect that the board have better access to higher quality crystal balls than your or I do and as such a budget is just a best forward educated guess of where we want to be. In real life events occur and budgets seem, over time, to be occasionally more and more unattainable. I wont penalize someone who has to deal with real life as long as they don't try and hide it. From my perspective the reality to me is that the board haven't put out a warning that things aren't going so well so I assume that because of that they are in fact not vastly different to budget.......One of us will be right......time will tell....

 

No facts were hidden in the preparing of this email

 

The words in this post constitute 45.8% of the recommended daily intake of forum waffle...

 

Andy

 

 

[turboplanner]

This is all a little pointless.

 

Essentially, there is no Recreational Aviation Australia, Inc., the million dollar building is now owned by a company, the staff work for a company, the board members are no longer board members - that's all in the past.

 

For some time your flying future is in the hands of three individuals, and they are totally accountable for what happens next - win or lose.

 

 

[skeptic36]

The words in this post constitute 45.8% of the recommended daily intake of forum waffle...

Holy smoke, no wonder I feel bloated all the time, it seems I've been over indulging......

 

 

[Keith Page]

This is all a little pointless.Essentially, there is no Recreational Aviation Australia, Inc., the million dollar building is now owned by a company, the staff work for a company, the board members are no longer board members - that's all in the past.

For some time your flying future is in the hands of three individuals, and they are totally accountable for what happens next - win or lose.

How will staff remuneration be affected? Not for profit organisation to a company. Will there be pay roll tax?

KP.

 

 

[turboplanner]

How will staff remuneration be affected? Not for profit organisation to a company. Will there be pay roll tax?KP.

Keith,

They were questions the members were expected to ask the proponents of the change.

 

If I have been reading the posts correctly, the special resolution was not approved by the Board, but was the idea of two or three individuals (happy to be corrected on that)

 

Now you'll have to wait and see, and there's nothing sinister in that; there is a timetable for all of that to be established.