Refuelling from Jerrycans - Metal or Plastic?

[rhtrudder]

What are "tuff jugs"?Are these tuff jugs?

She's only got two.[ATTACH=full]43040[/ATTACH]

You blokes need to get your heads out of the gutter and not between the jugs

 

 

[hihosland]

friction applied to silicone enhanced jugs could lead to serious shock.

 

Inside a fuel tank one can expect that the concentration of fuel vapour in the air vapour/mixture will be too high (rich) for sustained ignition or explosion. Consequently a static discharge spark that occurs within the tank is unlikely to cause ignition. Therefore it is good practice to ensure that the nozzle is inserted as far as it can go into the tank before commencing fuel flow. Also good practice to pause after the flow has ceased before removing the nozzle.

 

I have concerns about the system that one sometimes sees of using air pressure to drive fuel from a container. Such a system will shift the fuel vapour/air mixture inside the container from being too rich to ignite towards an explosive ratio;- just add spark and disaster.

 

 

[Hargraves]

After completing my pilot certificate and passerger endorsment in a J3 cub I started my search to find my first aircraft, which was acheived only (after) the purchase of an approved fuel drum pump and 60 liter drum. I consider this an absolute safety priority for my aircraft operations not only from the static discharge earthing point of view but, more likely in my opinion, the loss of balance or slipping with a full fuel container when decanting, especially to high wing tank fillers. But thats just me I guess. Cheers Hargraves

 

 

[eightyknots]

What are "tuff jugs"?Are these tuff jugs?

She's only got two.[ATTACH=full]43040[/ATTACH]

I am sceptical.

 

 

[onetrack]

Static electricity is a very real concern, and not for nothing does every refuelling tanker have a large static strap that is connected to ground as the very first step in emptying the tanker.

 

The Murray Bridge SE article is very good. A large portion of SE buildup comes from synthetic clothing, and movement of your body and clothing across upholstery and other components, that assist in creating static buildup.

 

Watch this young lady slide her body in and out of the vehicle, creating the static buildup that releases when she grabs the fuel bowser handpiece.

 

 

 

[pmccarthy]

You should be writing for those magazine:

 

Watch this young lady slide her body in and out ..., creating the ... buildup that releases when she grabs ...

 

 

[onetrack]

Steady up, there, PMC. Concentrate on the main subject - it's unnecessary distractions that will cause you to crash and burn.

 

I think the moderators need to remove that "tuff jugs" pic, that has you distracted and thinking of anything but re-fuelling.

 

 

[DrZoos]

What your wearing and of the aircraft has been flying, or if the weather is dry and windy has far more effect than if its plastic or metal. Simple, ground yourself and the aircraft regularly before exposing fuel and or vapour to a potential arcing spark...

 

Surely by a pilots age most of us know what and when we are likely to get a potential spark...

 

 

[onetrack]

There's also the potential danger in the fume trail, to take into account, as well as static electricity.

 

You can have something in the area producing an ignition source, and the fuel fumes on the wind, will find it - and then the ignition will start a distance away, and work back to you and your jerrycan!

 

In my lifetime, I've seen fuel fires under the following conditions;

 

One person was refuelling and another was playing with spanners on a battery nearby. The spannerhand dropped his spanner, which arced on the frame when the other end made contact with the positive battery terminal. The sparks generated, set fire to the fuel fumes drifting on the wind, and the fire travelled 15 metres back to the refueller and ignited the fuel being poured.

 

A bloke was refuelling his car from a bowser, with caravan connected, in a large country fuel depot. He'd forgotten he had an LP gas fridge running inside the 'van. He splashed a little as he reached the full mark.

 

Petrol fumes travelled on the wind, into the 'van, where the LP gas flame ignited them. The fire travelled back along the fumes to the car, where it lit up the spilt fuel, then the fuel at the open fuel filler neck. By the time the bloke grabbed a nearby extinguisher, the fire was out of control.

 

The resultant major fire burnt the car, the 'van and the entire fuel depot to the ground!

 

I could see the smoke from 70kms away in the W.A. Goldfields - so I went to see what was causing it! It was the most spectacular fire I've ever seen!

 

Another episode was caused by a person using an electric mower near to a refuelling operation. The arcing of the brushes in the electric motor ignited the fuel fumes that were travelling on the wind, and the fire travelled back to the refueller and ignited his fuel being poured!

 

A mechanic who worked for me, on a country jobsite, wanted to open a metal jerrycan full to the top with petrol. Previously, because it was a very cold day, the other workers with him, had lit a fire in the open, to keep warm. The fire was down to coals.

 

Colin, the mechanic, moved around 10-12 metres away from the remains of the fire to open the jerrycan. He opened it by holding it between his legs (it had a very tight cap).

 

As he struggled with loosening the cap, it popped open and petrol from the slightly overfull jerrycan splashed out on the ground and around Colins legs.

 

The fuel fumes travelled to the warm coals, where they were promptly ignited - and the fire travelled back to Colin and his now-open jerrycan, igniting the spilt fuel on the ground, the fuel in the jerrycan, and the fuel spilt on his legs. He suffered serious 2nd degree burns to his lower legs as a result.

 

So, my advice is, check for potential fuel ignition sources at all times - ensure that they are removed to at least 30 metres away - and ensure that you know where your fuel pouring fume trail is heading on the wind, and that it is being dispersed to the open air, away from any potential ignition source.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

That is impressive, I had no idea. My much simpler story -trying to smoke a ferret out of a rabbit burrow, because he had been down there for hours, my mate opened a jerry can of petrol and we never knew how the fire jumped to it.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...it was a very cold day, the other workers with him, had lit a fire in the open, to keep warm. The fire was down to coals...The fuel fumes travelled to the warm coals, where they were promptly ignited...

Wow, Onetrack, interesting. My team once showered sparks from a grinder across a tray of petrol, but it refused to ignite. We put that down to the air being too cold to allow the fuel to vapourise.

 

 

[Hargraves]

About 40 years ago an electrician mate of mine decided to use a cup of diesel on an almost dead campfire, one cold morning at our shooting camp to "get her going again " it was bloody cold, so I was already up and observed the result. As their was residual heat still present but no glowing coals,the diesel turned to pure white vapor and proceeded to propergate in a wounderfull cascading mannor along and down the slight gradient towards our other still sleeping mates, causing us to get them up quickish. The fumes did not ignite fortunately. But even including ten years as a firefighter, due to the high visability of the fume vapour, I have yet to see a better example of fume propergation and spreading. It made me very aware of the hazard potential of invisable highly flamable fumes. Cheers Hargraves

 

 

[facthunter]

OK the air/fuel ratio was probably too rich for it to ignite. You have to have a bit of luck on your side as well. Nev

 

 

[onetrack]

My team once showered sparks from a grinder across a tray of petrol, but it refused to ignite. We put that down to the air being too cold to allow the fuel to vapourise.

I've personally had no trouble at all, igniting an open-top parts washpan, about 1/3rd full of kerosene, with angle grinder sparks - which washpan was located 10 metres away, at the far end of the workshop! The day was moderately warm.I'd suggest your angle grinder probably wasn't producing heavy enough sparks, and they were effectively extinguished when over the tray.

I was using a 230mm grinder and producing some pretty heavy sparks (well, flying hot metal, actually).

 

 

[facthunter]

The fumes can drift a long way and the mixture ignite and the flame travels though it. Genthin thinners and solvent ether (start ya barsteward) so be careful in enclosed areas. Nev

 

 

[skippydiesel]

It would seem to me this idea that 98 RON (or any fuel) will degrade down to about 91 RON in sealed container (not a vented fuel tank) in two weeks, needs to be explored with much more rigor.

 

I understand & accept that many materials will exhibit a degree of permeability to certain gases/liquids .

 

I find it hard to accept (without experimental data/proof) that a sealed plastic container, designed specifically to carry/contain petrol, in normal earth climate/conditions, will exhibit such a degree of permeability, that the fuel contained within will degrade in such a short a period as 2 weeks.

 

Osmosis is the process a process by which molecules of a solvent tend to pass through a semipermeable membrane from a less concentrated solution into a more concentrated one. This does not sound much like a fuel can to atmosphere exchange.

 

 

[onetrack]

There's a lot of BS floating around as regards fuel life. Much of it is unvalidated opinion. To get to the nub of the matter, we have to go to the oil company chemists, who have all the knowledge about fuel and oil chemistry, the legislative and end-user requirements that a fuel must meet - and who know precisely what the chemical components of a particular fuel are, and their physical properties.

 

Below is the relevant paragraphs from Shell Australias website; they're talking about ULP basically here, but see that it says, "all fuels";

 

As with all fuels, Shell recommends storing fuel in an approved fuel container for no longer than six months. Fuel quality during storage can be maximised if it is stored in a cool location in an approved clean, dry fuel container with an air tight seal and full with fuel to approximately 95% of the container volume.

Note the above key words and phrases;

 

"Approved" fuel container.

 

"Cool location".

 

"Air tight seal".

 

"Full with fuel to approximately 95% volume".

 

Approved fuel containers do not lose fuel via osmosis. We can safely put that furphy to bed. Store your fuel in a non-approved plastic container of dubious origin and ability, and all bets are off.

 

99.9% of fuel degradation comes from caps that do not seal properly - i.e. - are not an "Air tight seal".

 

"Air tight seal" means your containers change size when subjected to major temperature changes.

 

They blow up in the sun until they look like the Michelin Man, and they start to look like an Ethiopian famine victim on very cold mornings, when you have an "air tight seal" on your cap.

 

Buy quality fuel containers and ensure the cap seal is good, fill them right up, and your fuel is good for 6 mths.

 

Shell chemists say so, and I put a substantial degree of faith into what they are telling us, is correct.

 

Leave a large amount of air in your containers when you store them, and the volatile "aromatic ingredients", as they are called (that's benzene, xylene and toluene) dissipate into the air space in the container, and are then released to the atmosphere when you open the container.

 

At that point, you then DO have degraded fuel.

 

Storage temperature is important - particularly evenness of storage temperature. Store your fuel like your best Penfolds Grange Hermitage, and it won't suffer from problems - that can be caused by chemical constituent molecules starting to break down, due to high storage temperatures.

 

Huge temperature variations applied to fuel, produce the potential for condensation of the water vapour in the air above the fuel.

 

See "Fill with fuel to approximately 95% volume" to solve this potential problem.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Thus sayeth the gospel according to Saint OneTrack - your words have the sound of truth .