This is why you dont turn back

[gibby]

This is a great video of why you don't try to turn back after engine failure

 

 

 

[Ultralights]

or a good reason to get proper training in advanced aircraft control maneuvers. so you can make those sorts of turns safely.

 

 

[flyvulcan]

800-1200' loss, even when the pilots were prepared for it and they certainly didn't appear to delay any recovery action. That is a real eye-opener.

 

 

[Teckair]

And more proof that using rudder only for directional control on final is a bad idea.

 

 

[facthunter]

A stall in a turn (or pullout from a dive) will be more "active" generally than the one we all do in training, as the planes effective weight is higher. This is where you may easily get caught out if you don't get exposure and full understanding during your training. Nev

 

 

[Pearo]

And more proof that using rudder only for directional control on final is a bad idea.

I said in a post a while back, that if think using rudder turning/on final is good you should get a competent instructor and get in the air and try it.

 

As part of my training, I had to to turning, descending and climbing stalls and various combinations off all. Whilst its all good training in stall recovery a lot of it was to demonstrate what can happen during take off and landing. Doing that type of training also helps demonstrate the conditions that occur approaching a stalled state.

 

 

[SDQDI]

I said in a post a while back, that if think using rudder turning/on final is good you should get a competent instructor and get in the air and try it.As part of my training, I had to to turning, descending and climbing stalls and various combinations off all. Whilst its all good training in stall recovery a lot of it was to demonstrate what can happen during take off and landing. Doing that type of training also helps demonstrate the conditions that occur approaching a stalled state.

I totally agree with your second paragraph Pearo but I think your first is poorly worded inasmuch as I am sure you don't mean use no rudder ie take your feet off the pedals!

 

 

[Pearo]

I totally agree with your second paragraph Pearo but I think your first is poorly worded inasmuch as I am sure you don't mean use no rudder ie take your feet off the pedals!

Typing to fast! You are correct. Use the rudder to keep the aircraft balanced, not to steer.

 

Cant edit the post either, the option goes away not long after you post it.

 

 

[Teckair]

I am amazed at how many instructors teach their students to fly unbalanced and nobody does anything about it, you can report things to the RAAus Ops managers but it is a waste of time.

 

 

[Fishla]

How can you fly unbalanced?

 

I thought I was susceptible to air sickness until I got my turns better coordinated!

 

I'm not perfect yet but the little ball is usually in its place...

 

 

[SDQDI]

Well to be really picky tech I think if an instructor didn't teach a student how to fly unbalanced they would be being a bit negligent.

 

Of course teaching them when and when not to is also important. (Which I reckon is what you are getting at.)

 

 

[M61A1]

I fly a lot of approaches with very crossed controls...........often full rudder.

 

 

[Geoff13]

I fly a lot of approaches with very crossed controls...........often full rudder.

Yep done a few of those. Tons of fun.

 

 

[Teckair]

I fly a lot of approaches with very crossed controls...........often full rudder.

Yep side slipping done correctly is good but I think you know that is not what I was on about.

 

 

[poteroo]

m amazed at how many instructors teach their students to fly unbalanced and nobody does anything about it, you can report things to the RAAus Ops managers but it is a waste of time.

Mate, this is a pretty serious allegation. I trust you made the report/s in 'writing' so they can be substantiated. I cannot believe that any instructor worth the proverbial 2 bob is not able to fly the aircraft in whatever 'state-of-balance' that a manoeuvre requires. It would be picked up immediately by a PE during a review.

 

Despite my comment above, have to say that I've seen some very poorly balanced efforts over many hundreds of flight reviews and low level endorsements over the years. In more recent times, I'm seeing a lot more use of too much rudder - creating a skid with the increased risk of a stall/spin 'under'.....difficult recovery unless there's a lot of airspace below!

 

happy days,

 

 

[facthunter]

If an instructor couldn't tell if the plane was unbalanced without even looking at the slip ball he's been flying only crude simulators. You pick it up straight away. That's the origin of "seat of the pants" flying. I mentioned in the past, push the ball back with the foot (and got into strife) but I've done it again so waiting waiting...

 

Most sideslips I see are pretty ordinary.. Apply bank first and stop the turn with rudder and a bit of back stick ....watch the airspeed.. and adjust pitch if needed.. Nev

 

 

[Garfly]

On the subject of keeping straight with rudder on final (not to be conflated with turning final) there was an exhaustive debate here a couple of years ago; much of it between and among instructors of two schools of thought:

 

Steering on final with rudder

 

 

[Ultralights]

I am amazed at how many instructors teach their students to fly unbalanced and nobody does anything about it, you can report things to the RAAus Ops managers but it is a waste of time.

Because, sadly, a lot of instructors only teach what they were taught themselves, and with quite a few low time pilots becoming instructors, the quality of flying training slowly degrades with each new instructor.

if your instructor cant balance an aircraft, or doenst understand the significance of balanced flight at low speeds or in turns, then find another instructor. sadly, a lot of pilots think that getting along well with their instructor means they are a good flying instructor, sadly, it quite often not the case, i was fortunate to have an ex RAAF pilot as my initial instructor, and later instructors have been ex military as well, and some flights were a disaster, he had some students in tears, and never sugar coated anything, if you stuffed something up, he told you so, and you didnt ever stuff it up again. and i have flown with other students that came from other schools, telling me how great their instructor was, yet still had no idea about the basic things like stall AOA, and not using rudder as shown in the video above.

 

 

[Teckair]

Mate, this is a pretty serious allegation. I trust you made the report/s in 'writing' so they can be substantiated.

I spoke to the then CEO about it who said to put it in an email to the then Ops manager which I did. I did not keep a copy and as far as I know the instructors who teach that way still do it and no action was taken. What started all this was an incident where I was doing a tail wheel endorsement for someone, when turning onto final we had over shot the turn and the guy stood on the left rudder which caused a violent skid. The ball tried to fly out of its casing and my bum was jammed against the right side of the seat, when I tried to stop that action the indignant pilot said he had been trained to fly like that. There has been a lot said about this matter and I have found the pilots who have been trained to fly like that think it is a great idea. It is not just RAAus there are GA schools who teach the same thing.

 

 

[facthunter]

That's pretty outrageous really. Totally dangerous. What whacko taught them that?

 

On the subject of liking your instructor. Respecting him/her would be more relevant. You don't want an easy ride. You are only an ab initio ONCE and bad habits will stay if they aren't picked up and sorted. With your theory keeping up or ahead of the sequences you do., briefings and debriefings should ensure a sound basic understanding. If there is anything you are not sure of, sort THAT out at the time. Don't be backward in coming forward and asking a question. The fool is the one who not wanting to look foolish doesn't ask the question. Correct understanding is the foundation of everything later. When you get your brand new certificate, you have the basics only, and they should be sound. Your instructor should have taught the right GEN not BS. If someone is teaching that, front them and if they keep doing it report them. It's that important. Great way to get killed. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

That's pretty outrageous really. Totally dangerous. What whacko taught them that?

 

On the subject of liking your instructor. Respecting him/her would be more relevant. You don't want an easy ride. You are only an ab initio ONCE and bad habits will stay if they aren't picked up and sorted. With your theory keeping up or ahead of the sequences you do., briefings and debriefings should ensure a sound basic understanding. If there is anything you are not sure of, sort THAT out at the time. Don't be backward in coming forward and asking a question. The fool is the one who not wanting to look foolish doesn't ask the question. Correct understanding is the foundation of everything later. When you get your brand new certificate, you have the basics only, and they should be sound. Your instructor should have taught the right GEN not BS. If someone is teaching that, front them and if they keep doing it report them. It's that important. Great way to get killed. Nev

 

 

[Teckair]

That's pretty outrageous really. Totally dangerous.

Yes I was not happy and I find it hard to believe he was taught to do that my guess is he was taught to make small inputs with the rudder on final and the line got blurred to where he ended up doing that. I think we made the turn onto final normally and it was when he realised we had over shot he stood on the rudder. Absolutely dangerous still and makes me wonder how many people have died doing stuff like that. I did report it and to the best of my knowledge nothing was done about it. One guy told me he was given spin training in a RAAus Jabiru. I have given up reporting stuff it ends up being your word against theirs and you get branded a dobber.

 

 

[facthunter]

True but ... it is something that could result in people dying. It is the area where most come to grief. and no room for error exists at that point. I wouldn't like to have it on my conscience. Nev

 

 

[frank marriott]

I have given up reporting stuff it ends up being your word against theirs and you get branded a dobber.

That is exactly the difference between an "investigator" INVESTIGATING information from an informant V taking the basic information from an informant as the total evidence to support/disprove an allegation. Big difference - unfortunately the latter appears to be the case. Confidentiality another issue.

 

 

[djpacro]

This is a great video of why you don't try to turn back after engine failure

seems that neither CASA nor ATSB take much interest in training, or at least familiarising, pilots on the skidding turn stall as Pete routinely does here. It features in the USA FAA's training material. Nought in CASA's Flight Instructor Manual and even the enhanced Part 61 syllabus for stalls at RPL stage ignores it.Some instructors encounter this when they do their mandatory spin endorsement but depends on who they do it with as its not a CASA requirement.

 

One of my friends showed me a video of his dual stalling lesson in a Foxbat, including initial part of an incipient spin (i.e. wing drop at the stall). Good training and good instructor, I thought at the time. But illegal as a result of CASA's new non-ICAO definition of aerobatics.