That Black Stuff

[IBob]

ICP supply a can of what they call a water primer. The manual states that it should be applied between riveted surfaces, and that it should be allowed to dry before assembly.

 

Simple enough, eh? But roaming websites and blogs, both recent and old we have:

 

1. Builders sure it needs to be applied to one face only.

 

2. Builders sure it needs to be applied to both faces.

 

3. Builders applying some other primer instead (Wattyl Etchprime seems very popular).

 

4. Builders using some other primer then also applying the Black Stuff.

 

I am trying to clarify this with the factory. It's slow going as i don't speak Italian, but I will persevere.

 

Does anyone have any concrete info on all this?

 

I'm not asking for unsupported opinions (there are no end of those). I'm trying to get back to what the manufacturer intended, and what this stuff is actually supposed to be doing.

 

I am at the start of my build, and would like to understand my options on this.

 

Thanks.

 

Bob

 

(A footnote: I have read the opinion that the Black Stuff reduces the possibility of rivets 'working', that it provides some physical bonding between components, to the extent that it can be difficult to disassemble.

 

This week, I applied some Black Stuff to rudder frame/skins, Leading Edge. It dried overnight and I assembled the next day. The following day I had to open the Leading Edge. I drilled out the rivets and the LE skin slipped out completely freely from between frame and skins.

 

All parts had been been coated and dried. There was no evidence of bonding between parts, and if anything the dried primer slipped easier than aluminium-to-aluminium.)

 

 

[IBob]

Hm, that's intriguing: 89 views so far and not a squeak. I guess that says something, though I'm not sure what.

 

So far, the factory say:

 

"As explained on the manual you have to put the primer between the parts before riveting. For that operation you can use a paintbrush or tampon." (Nope, I didn't make that last bit up).

 

Which does not answer what I asked them: on one part of both parts?

 

They then go on to say:

 

"Another possibility (we do it for those airplanes that “live” close to the sea or are used on the sea) is to protect with primer the complete surfaces of the parts.

 

In that case we use an epoxy primer for aluminium and spray each part before assembly in the painting cabin.

 

For that operation it’s necessary to be very careful because you have to remove the label from the parts and then maybe you could have more difficulties to recognize the parts.

 

Do not hesitate to contact us if you need additional information."

 

I thanked them courteously for that, then rephrased my original question (on one part or both?) So far I have no response.

 

Meanwhile, then, my own thoughts:

 

I. I don't see how this can be a bonding agent. I know of nothing that bonds when dry, and they say to let it dry. (Yes, contact adhesives are pretty 'dry' when you bond them, but they're actually still very soft and plastic; this stuff dries hard.) I may run some more tests to see where that idea has come from, it seems to me most likely the riveting of parts with the blackstuff not fully dry?

 

2. If it's not a bonding agent, then it is intended primarily to minimise corrosion.

 

3. In the case of corrosion due to electrolytic action it may be that coating one surface only is sufficient.

 

4. In the case of corrosion due to moisture and contaminants finding their way into the joins, surely both/all parts would need to be coated.

 

I have just come in from a morning of trying to properly and neatly coat all mating surfaces on a batch of parts. To paint just one face would be fairly easy, but both faces is a different story: this requires identifying how much of which faces of each part will be in contact with another part. I am fairly sure that, despite working as best I can from the exploded drawings, I will have painted bits that don't need it, and not painted bits that do. I shall find out when I come to assembly, then there will be further delay while I coat/dry the missed bits.

 

And I am not enjoying it.

 

Accordingly, I am going to quit the black stuff. I'm off now buy a small gun and a litre of Wattyl Etch Primer. Life being too short for this sorta stuff.

 

And yes, I know the second part is all unsupported opinion, but it's the best I can do when talking to myself...)

 

 

[M61A1]

Do you know what the "black stuff" is? Might help to find manufacturers data sheet.

 

I'm not building a Savannah, but I work on aircraft structures for a living. I really don't think much of Wattyl etch. assuming that's the grey crap I've got all over an airframe here. Personally I'd recommend a good chromate primer and good surface prep. especially between mating surfaces. If you want really good corrosion resistance seal every faying surface with polysulphide sealant, especially between different metals.

 

Also "tampon" in some languages just means "pad". lol

 

 

[IBob]

Do you know what the "black stuff" is? Might help to find manufacturers data sheet.I'm not building a Savannah, but I work on aircraft structures for a living. I really don't think much of Wattyl etch. assuming that's the grey crap I've got all over an airframe here. Personally I'd recommend a good chromate primer and good surface prep. especially between mating surfaces. If you want really good corrosion resistance seal every faying surface with polysulphide sealant, especially between different metals.

Also "tampon" in some languages just means "pad". lol

Thanks for that, M6.

 

Unfortunately, there is no manufacturer or data sheet...it's just an unmarked can that comes with the kit. Which probably accounts for the mystique and confusion surrounding it. And the deafening silence on the subject here now.

 

 

[M61A1]

Thanks for that, M6.Unfortunately, there is no manufacturer or data sheet...it's just an unmarked can that comes with the kit. Which probably accounts for the mystique and confusion surrounding it. And the deafening silence on the subject here now.

Don't know whether that would pass health and safety regs.... giving someone and unmarked can, with no details as to the content or how it is to be used. At least if you know what it's called, you can search on how to use it.

 

 

[mnewbery]

Tampon=stamp in French. Often as a verb

 

 

[Guy s]

Thanks for that, M6.Unfortunately, there is no manufacturer or data sheet...it's just an unmarked can that comes with the kit. Which probably accounts for the mystique and confusion surrounding it. And the deafening silence on the subject here now.

I think once here was a name etc on the can but they change that, maybe so you couldn't buy elsewhere. You will eventually need a second can as one's not quite enough.

 

 

[old man emu]

Don't know whether that would pass health and safety regs.... giving someone and unmarked can, with no details as to the content or how it is to be used. At least if you know what it's called, you can search on how to use it.

You are quite correct there. In Australia, and New Zealand you have the right to demand access to the SDS (Safety Data Sheet) of any product that you use. Trouble is, without your kit manufacturer identifying the product, you can't identify the problem.

 

As a a long shot, why don't you contact an Italian language newspaper in NZ, or the Italian Embassy and ask for help in translating your request to the supplier and emailing the translation?

 

OME

 

 

[M61A1]

Tampon=stamp in French. Often as a verb

 

 

[rankamateur]

Hm, that's intriguing: 89 views so far and not a squeak. I guess that says something, though I'm not sure what.

I gave you what I had and you didn't like it, can't do anymore for you than that. I have assisted Aerokits in six kit builds prior to building my own, he has built four others leading upto and during that time. I guess I am happy to believe what he says.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Thanks for that, M6.Unfortunately, there is no manufacturer or data sheet...it's just an unmarked can that comes with the kit. Which probably accounts for the mystique and confusion surrounding it. And the deafening silence on the subject here now.

If you look at the can there is a label but the applicable information has been written over with a black permanent marker, so somebody knows who makes it but you and I are not meant to need to know.

 

 

[IBob]

I gave you what I had and you didn't like it, can't do anymore for you than that. I have assisted Aerokits in six kit builds prior to building my own, he has built four others leading upto and during that time. I guess I am happy to believe what he says.

Hi Steve. The last thing I would wish is to get into an argument over this stuff, and it certainly wasn't my intention here. What I am actually trying to do is get to the bottom of the (many) bits I don't understand. And I see it a bit like sorting health issues: you go the the Dr, you read as widely as you can, you talk to the experts. And then you make your own decision.

 

In my work, everything I do is a project. Not always original stuff, but all new projects nevertheless. And part of getting good results in that is understanding the processes we are dealing with, as best we can. So I tend to want to know. And I tend to keep going until i do. Maybe that helps explain. If that comes across as abrasive or critical, then I apologise. It's certainly not intended that way.

 

 

[IBob]

Hm...so I may need to check the bathroom cabinet when it's paint prep time???

 

 

[bobcharl]

Hi Bob,

 

I realise I am a week behind the discussion, but that is the story of my life.

 

Re your difficulties with the 'black goop', I found that anywhere you require a clean finish, cleco the two parts together and run a strip of masking tape tightly along the exposed edge before dismantling and painting it on.(eg. external skins)

 

The other side is usually inside the structure and is not visible.

 

The inside (hidden) areas of my a/c is not pretty due to this.

 

For what it is worth I painted both mating surfaces. I seem to remember putting this query to my supplier who advised this, but it is some time ago and I may be wrong.

 

Why not ask your supplier- he is a mine of information.

 

Happy building

 

Bob

 

 

[Ultralights]

i have never seen the black stuff people are talking about, but is it possible its intended as a barrier to water and air? its not meant to bond parts together, but fill the gaps in joins to prevent moisture getting in and stopping corrosion? similar to CA1000 that most major manufacturers use? "

 

CA 1000 Non-Chromate Corrosion Inhibitive Jointing Compound

 

CA 1000 is a non-curing, non-chromate corrosion inhibitive compound. It has a service temperature range from -65°F (-54°C) to 240°F (116°C), with intermittent excursions up to 275°F (135°C). This material acts as an effective barrier against the common cause of corrosion on aluminum alloys on between dissimilar metals. The compound remains permanently mastic after prolonged exposure to air-crafts fuels, both jet fuel and aviation gas.

 

- See more at: CA 1000 NON-CHROMATE CORROSION INHIBITIVE JOINTING COMPOUND - PPG Industries - Aerospace"

 

 

[rankamateur]

"CA 1000 is supplied in 1 part 6 oz. Semco® cartridges."

 

Doesn't sound like the same product supplied which is supplied in 1 litre tins. It's runny consistency would be awkward to handle in cartridges.

 

 

[IBob]

Hi Bob,I realise I am a week behind the discussion, but that is the story of my life.

Re your difficulties with the 'black goop', I found that anywhere you require a clean finish, cleco the two parts together and run a strip of masking tape tightly along the exposed edge before dismantling and painting it on.(eg. external skins)

 

The other side is usually inside the structure and is not visible.

 

The inside (hidden) areas of my a/c is not pretty due to this.

 

For what it is worth I painted both mating surfaces. I seem to remember putting this query to my supplier who advised this, but it is some time ago and I may be wrong.

 

Why not ask your supplier- he is a mine of information.

 

Happy building

 

Bob

Hi Bob, thank you for your comments and suggestions. Always welcome.

 

This seems to be one of those Pandora's boxes, and part of me wishes I hadn't lifted the lid here. It's a bit like paint systems (I'm discovering), or politics, or religion, or footy teams....where all manner of people fervently hold all sorts of (quite differing) views.

 

I hereby promise to publish here how my particular experience goes, when it does. That aside, I have no more to say.

 

But yep, I'm settling in and enjoying the build...it's very absorbing (that's shorthand for i'm dsicovering I have to keep my wits about me).

 

Go well

 

Bob

 

 

[bobcharl]

Bob,

 

May be of interest to you and others.

 

I have found an old tin of left-over 'black stuff 'with a quite legible label.

 

You will still need an Italian translator though. It reads:

 

ALBESIANO SISA (VERNICI)

 

Via Rigolfo, 73-10028 Tr0farello (To)

 

5313/A

 

Smalto All 'Acqua Semiopaco Nero

 

Conservare a temperature 5deg C<25degC

 

It also includes a batch no.& date and a shelf life (6 months) but sadly no email address.

 

Regards,

 

Bob

 

 

[IBob]

Bob,May be of interest to you and others.

I have found an old tin of left-over 'black stuff 'with a quite legible label.

 

You will still need an Italian translator though. It reads:

 

ALBESIANO SISA (VERNICI)

 

Via Rigolfo, 73-10028 Tr0farello (To)

 

5313/A

 

Smalto All 'Acqua Semiopaco Nero

 

Conservare a temperature 5deg C<25degC

 

It also includes a batch no.& date and a shelf life (6 months) but sadly no email address.

 

Regards,

 

Bob

Water Based Enamel, Semi Opaque, Black...............

 

And probably I should have said that I have had no further response from the factory.

 

For myself, I'm no longer pursuing this. But thank you for the info, Bob.

 

 

[rankamateur]

And probably I should have said that I have had no further response from the factory.

You did well to get the first response. I never have, all correspondence went through the dealer after that.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Bob,May be of interest to you and others.

I have found an old tin of left-over 'black stuff 'with a quite legible label.

 

You will still need an Italian translator though. It reads:

 

ALBESIANO SISA (VERNICI)

 

Via Rigolfo, 73-10028 Tr0farello (To)

 

5313/A

 

Smalto All 'Acqua Semiopaco Nero

 

Conservare a temperature 5deg C<25degC

 

It also includes a batch no.& date and a shelf life (6 months) but sadly no email address.

 

Regards,

 

Bob

These are the contact details:

 

Address: Via Rigolfo 73, 10028 Trofarello TO, Italy

 

Phone: +39 011 649 3111. I couldn't find an email address but the www.albesiano.com website redirects to this: Von Roll Markets and products

 

 

[red750]

Refer to post #7 in this thread from Kyle Aircraft Primer- Zinc Chromate or Oxide Primer ?