Departing circuit downwind?

[turboplanner]

CAAP says "Aircraft should depart the aerodrome circuit area by extending one of the standard circuit legs or climbing to depart overhead". Climbing out on downwind is not flying contrary to the circuit direction.

Downwind and the circuit end at the Base turning point, so if you fly downwind at circuit height, from the point where you would normally make the turn on to base, you are no longer in "the circuit", no longer on "downwind" you're in open sky, so you can start your climb. (Unless there are specific local airfield requirements due to parachuting, non standard inbound locations etc)

 

 

[Yenn]

Turbs, you may be right but some fast GA planes will go much further out with their base leg than you or I may do. They will also possibly be coming up behind you and not necessarily keeping a good lookout ahead. Nowhere is really safe from those behind you.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Turbs, you may be right but some fast GA planes will go much further out with their base leg than you or I may do. They will also possibly be coming up behind you and not necessarily keeping a good lookout ahead. Nowhere is really safe from those behind you.

All of those things can happen, although my experience is, in a very busy circuit pattern, the underpowered aircraft and some day dreamers will climb out on take off for longer to reach their crosswind target and longer again to reach, say the 1000 ft downwind target, so you might have three guys coming downwind at 1000 ft, and the Cessna 152, one of the slowest will have taken the longest to get to 1000 ft, so will be a lot further out, flying a longer circuit, and unless he takes action to come in onto the more common downwind track, you're set for some trip ups and juggling, which may include going wide or extending your downwind to fit in with the stragglers and the Barons on your tail. It calls for 360 degree head turning and ability to slow your aircraft down to a crawl at times, to get the separation just right. So yes, an awful lot is happening on downwind, and you really don't want someone pulling back on the stick to start his climb out before he's downstream of the dogfight.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Turbs there is nothing wrong with climbing on the downwind leg. Climbing to depart overhead is one of the two recommended departure techniques. For sure it might be busy overhead but it is no different to coming into an aerodrome you just have to expect traffic and keep your eyes open. You will note the "caution" note after the recommendations.

 

6.4

 

Departing the circuit area

 

6.4.1

 

Aircraft should depart the aerodrome circuit area by extending one of the standard circuit legs or climbing to depart overhead. However, the aircraft should not execute a turn to fly against the circuit direction unless the aircraft is well outside the circuit area and no traffic conflict exists. This will normally be at least 3 NM from the departure end of the runway, but may be less for aircraft with high climb performance. In all cases, the distance should be based on the pilot’s awareness of traffic and the ability of the aircraft to climb above and clear of the circuit area.

 

 

CAUTION

 

Be aware of traffic joining the circuit by the recommended overfly procedure, especially if climbing to depart overhead the aerodrome.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

I can take this to my instructor and see what he has to say :)

Please let use know, I've had both views insisted on by two different CFI's. If it is - or could become - busy I personally stay at circuit height for most of downwind at least to avoid the potential danger of over-flyers. In most aircraft it's only a couple of minutes folks and in a high wing the view above is quite limited.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

but what if an aircraft was overflying the active side (Circuit height + 500ft) to come in for a mid-field crosswind join?

 

The problem is not joining aircraft, but people who are overflying to join. Overflying aircraft are likely only going to be 500ft above circuit height, so it makes sense to avoid climbing in this area.

To both of you, why would you overfly only to join crosswind? This makes no sense, if you are already on the active side, why not just descend and join the circuit? Don't forget there are three different circuit heights, so which one are you adding your 500 feet to?

 

Here's a tip for young players when approaching the circuit: Descend to circuit height prior to reaching the circuit area and alter course to the right and either join on downwind, or via a 45 degree downwind join (as per AIP). If the wind is unfavourable just join crosswind for the opposing runway. In most cases there is no need to overfly and you are just flying extra track miles for no reason.

 

NB: It is requirement for IFR aircraft to climb to LSALT within in the circling area under some conditions (read inside circuit area).

 

 

[turboplanner]

As usual with CASA publications, I can't find the rules I'm looking for, but during the search, this little diagramme came up, and while not relevant, I may never come across it again. You might want to save the link, because it gives some idea of the complex CASA nesting arrangement: The rules structure | Civil Aviation Safety Authority

 

 

[CAV0K]

To both of you, why would you overfly only to join crosswind? This makes no sense, if you are already on the active side, why not just descend and join the circuit? Don't forget there are three different circuit heights, so which one are you adding your 500 feet to?Here's a tip for young players when approaching the circuit: Descend to circuit height prior to reaching the circuit area and alter course to the right and either join on downwind, or via a 45 degree downwind join (as per AIP). If the wind is unfavourable just join crosswind for the opposing runway. In most cases there is no need to overfly and you are just flying extra track miles for no reason.

 

NB: It is requirement for IFR aircraft to climb to LSALT within in the circling area under some conditions (read inside circuit area).

It makes perfect sense. To answer your question as to why would I overfly the active side to join mid-field crosswind? Well if I am unfamiliar with the aerodrome it puts me in a position to safely assess the wind and conditions, it also prevents me from flying in at circuit height to then have to transit across an aerodrome to position myself within the correct pattern (whether it be the other side of the circuit or a different runway). If the circuit is busy, it gives me time to slot in and make myself known in the circuit to others flying. If you knew the conditions/heard traffic on the CTAF then sure I'd probably join downwind. Both are correct ways to join, but to say this makes no sense?

 

Obviously it depends on the traffic at the aerodrome, but I shall clarify it for you, depending on the the circuit speed of the aircraft that use the aerodrome you'd add 500ft on top of 1000ft/1500ft AGL. Let me know if you'd like some speeds.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

It makes perfect sense. To answer your question as to why would I overfly the active side to join mid-field crosswind? Well if I am unfamiliar with the aerodrome it puts me in a position to safely assess the wind and conditions, it also prevents me from flying in at circuit height to then have to transit across an aerodrome to position myself within the correct pattern (whether it be the other side of the circuit or a different runway). If the circuit is busy, it gives me time to slot in and make myself known in the circuit to others flying. If you knew the conditions/heard traffic on the CTAF then sure I'd probably join downwind. Both are correct ways to join, but to say this makes no sense?Obviously it depends on the traffic at the aerodrome, but I shall clarify it for you, depending on the the circuit speed of the aircraft that use the aerodrome you'd add 500ft on top of 1000ft/1500ft AGL. Let me know if you'd like some speeds.

All good points, but nothing that requires transiting to the 'dead side' of the field to be completed and increasing the risk to yourself and others by flying through the circuit area TWICE (even if you are at the correct altitude). If you are already on the active side of the field, just join the circuit!

I'm sorry but adding track miles, flight time and stooging around on the other side of the field when you have no need to be there, makes absolutely no sense at all!

 

 

[Aldo]

It makes perfect sense. To answer your question as to why would I overfly the active side to join mid-field crosswind? Well if I am unfamiliar with the aerodrome it puts me in a position to safely assess the wind and conditions, it also prevents me from flying in at circuit height to then have to transit across an aerodrome to position myself within the correct pattern (whether it be the other side of the circuit or a different runway). If the circuit is busy, it gives me time to slot in and make myself known in the circuit to others flying. If you knew the conditions/heard traffic on the CTAF then sure I'd probably join downwind. Both are correct ways to join, but to say this makes no sense?Obviously it depends on the traffic at the aerodrome, but I shall clarify it for you, depending on the the circuit speed of the aircraft that use the aerodrome you'd add 500ft on top of 1000ft/1500ft AGL. Let me know if you'd like some speeds.

CAVOK

 

Might pay to listen to what Howard has to say he has over 30 years experience and a hundred different aircraft types and what he said is correct

 

Aldo

 

 

[Aldo]

Downwind and the circuit end at the Base turning point, so if you fly downwind at circuit height, from the point where you would normally make the turn on to base, you are no longer in "the circuit", no longer on "downwind" you're in open sky, so you can start your climb. (Unless there are specific local airfield requirements due to parachuting, non standard inbound locations etc)

Turbs

 

If I remember correctly you are deemed to be out of the circuit once you reach 1500 AGL or at 3 miles whichever is soonest and you must be established on your outbound track by 5 miles.

 

Aldo

 

 

[pmccarthy]

If you have heard traffic and know the active runway then there is no need to overfly. But if you are arriving at a quiet field and don't know the wind then you may need to overfly, the join then depends on the wind direction.

 

 

[CAV0K]

All good points, but nothing that requires transiting to the 'dead side' of the field to be completed and increasing the risk to yourself and others by flying through the circuit area TWICE (even if you are at the correct altitude). If you are already on the active side of the field, just join the circuit!I'm sorry but adding track miles, flight time and stooging around on the other side of the field when you have no need to be there, makes absolutely no sense at all!

I agree, I guess what I'm saying is it makes sense if the situation requires an overfly, I did mention in my post that if I knew the wind/conditions I'd probably join downwind.

 

CAVOKMight pay to listen to what Howard has to say he has over 30 years experience and a hundred different aircraft types and what he said is correct

 

Aldo

And what I said is incorrect? CAAP 166-1(3) says otherwise.

 

Neither of us are incorrect and I've never disagreed with what Howard has said. Over flying is obviously personal preference to the pilot (unless situation dictates otherwise), after all the pilot is the one paying for time!

 

 

[Pearo]

To both of you, why would you overfly only to join crosswind? This makes no sense, if you are already on the active side, why not just descend and join the circuit? Don't forget there are three different circuit heights, so which one are you adding your 500 feet to?

I will quite often overfly to check the windsock and to get some situational awareness, especially if its an airfield that I am not familiar with. I also overfly almost all the time at YRED because that is the standard procedure, and only occasionally will I do a base join and only ever if there is no traffic on the CTAF.

 

As for height, well there is no 747's landing at most ALA's I land at that would be 1500ft. About the only time I wont do that is a regional strip where I know there is RPT traffic. The great thing about RPT though is they tend to use the radio, unlike a lot of rural cowboys.

 

 

[Pearo]

CAVOKMight pay to listen to what Howard has to say he has over 30 years experience and a hundred different aircraft types and what he said is correct

 

Aldo

Time can build complacency as well as experience. In aviation, it pays to listen to what everyone says.

 

 

[djpacro]

I fly a 1500 ft circuit when in my friend's single seat hotrod.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Yes - sorry - I just read the post properly - really interesting, as I hope to be starting to do more flying out of Cessnock in the next few weeks, so I best get up to speed !

Drop in to the Hunter Recreational Flying Club on the Western side of the airport and say hello. Pretty friendly bunch.

Expect some big Westerly crosswinds over the Winter and Autumn!

 

 

[Yenn]

I havn't flown into YRED, but I would expect all traffic to be at 1500' or lower as the class C starts at 1500' I would think it could get busy, but not much traffic coming from the South. I imagine there would be very little traffic overflying as it is so close to Brisbane.

 

 

[Pearo]

I havn't flown into YRED, but I would expect all traffic to be at 1500' or lower as the class C starts at 1500' I would think it could get busy, but not much traffic coming from the South. I imagine there would be very little traffic overflying as it is so close to Brisbane.

Almost all traffic overflies YRED, and yes it is at 1500. YRED is a unique example though, and climbing on downwind is almost certain to end in a separation issue. Most outgoing traffic remains at 1000ft until well clear of the field.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

To both of you, why would you overfly only to join crosswind? This makes no sense, if you are already on the active side, why not just descend and join the circuit? Don't forget there are three different circuit heights, so which one are you adding your 500 feet to?

Perhaps both of them have been taught to follow the regulators recommendations. CAAP 166 advises descending on the non active side after overflying. It specifically warns against descending on the active side. See Below.

 

6.6 Arrival procedures

 

6.6.1 Where a pilot is unfamiliar with the aerodrome layout, or when its serviceability, wind direction, wind speed, or circuit direction cannot be ascertained prior to arrival, the overfly procedure should be used. The pilot should overfly or circle the aerodrome at least 500 ft above the circuit altitude, usually 2,000 ft or more above aerodrome elevation. When the circuit direction has been determined, the pilot should position the aircraft to a point well clear of the circuit (normally the non-active side of the circuit), before descending to the circuit altitude applicable to the aircraft’s performance (see Figure 3).

 

 

 

CAUTION Be aware of traffic joining the circuit by the recommended overfly procedure, especially if climbing to depart overhead the aerodrome.

 

 

 

CAUTION Pilots should not descend into the active side of the traffic circuit from above because of the difficulty of seeing – and being seen by – aircraft directly below the aircraft’s flight path (see Appendix 1 for a more detailed diagram of the traffic circuit and overfly procedure).

 

 

[SDQDI]

Happy I think what HH was meaning (even if it didn't quite come out that way) was to decend before getting near the circuit and joining a close downwind leg. In most cases this would be perfectly fine. Even for unfamiliar airfields, if you come in at 45 degrees for the downwind and just come in close enough so you can see the sock and strip you will soon see if you need to continue on and call joining crosswind for the opposite runway or if the wind is right just call downwind and you will save a bit of time.

 

Now if you have heard traffic in the circuit you will have a decent idea of which runway is in "use" so there would be no real need to overfly as you should get a good view of the field either joining crosswind or downwind. (If you can't see the field on your downwind leg you are too far out! But that is a discussion for another day.)

 

Having said all of that the overfly method is still my go to technique when heading to a new airfield and is generally what I plan to do unless I hear traffic and then I will reassess my options and aim for downwind or crosswind if I can see it will work.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

CAAP 166 advises descending on the non active side after overflying. It specifically warns against descending on the active side. See Below.

You descend prior to the circuit to arrive at circuit altitude! Joining on upwind, downwind and even base are also legal procedures, but you failed to mention that part about about CAAP 166. I am happy for you to keep what you are doing, but there is a safer more efficient way!Here's a thought, you are dutifully heading to the 'deadside', when you realise that due to weather conditions you are actually on the circuit side, then what? Another trip to the other dead side? Descend on the live side? By moving right as you approach an airport, you are able to see the field, the windsock and join accordingly. This can include a downwind join, or if it turns, out the circuit is in the contra direction, you are already on the 'dead side' without having to cross anyone's path!! Furthermore you have also kept all of the circuit traffic in front of you and in your field of view!

 

Don't forget gliders and helicopters often operate contra circuits also!

 

 

[Nightmare]

Almost all traffic overflies YRED, and yes it is at 1500. YRED is a unique example though, and climbing on downwind is almost certain to end in a separation issue. Most outgoing traffic remains at 1000ft until well clear of the field.

I started my flight training at YRED, clocking up about 10hrs there. My instructor there said to me that there is an unwritten rule that outgoing traffic remains at 1000ft and incoming traffic is at 15ooft, and we always overflew the field before joining the circuit. Always seemed to be mid crosswind. As I was only 10hrs into my training I was never PIC. I don't think I'd be doing anything different now, except listening to the radio to see what runway was in use.

[ian00798]

I have been making a habit of doing base rejoins lately at Redcliffe unless I can't due traffic, and then I will normally go for a downwind rejoin. Most people come in via beachmere, so it really leaves you nicely set up for base on runway 07 or downwind runway 25. With Redcliffe you have the water below to give a good idea of wind direction, and the Brisbane ATIS, so you should know what runway is in use. I'm with HH, the less time you spend manoeuvring in the CCT area the better, find a spot you fit in and make it work from there, don't add extra track miles for no good reason, and the quicker you land the more it frees up the circuit for other aircraft. The toughest thing initially in uncontrolled aerodromes is building up a situational awareness of where the traffic is, but that eventually gets easier. The best advice I have there is write down call signs, and cross them off once they report clear of the runway.

 

 

[Pearo]

I have been making a habit of doing base rejoins lately at Redcliffe unless I can't due traffic, and then I will normally go for a downwind rejoin. Most people come in via beachmere, so it really leaves you nicely set up for base on runway 07 or downwind runway 25. With Redcliffe you have the water below to give a good idea of wind direction, and the Brisbane ATIS, so you should know what runway is in use. I'm with HH, the less time you spend manoeuvring in the CCT area the better, find a spot you fit in and make it work from there, don't add extra track miles for no good reason, and the quicker you land the more it frees up the circuit for other aircraft. The toughest thing initially in uncontrolled aerodromes is building up a situational awareness of where the traffic is, but that eventually gets easier. The best advice I have there is write down call signs, and cross them off once they report clear of the runway.

I must admit I am also guilty of doing base joins at YRED, likewise dependent on traffic. It seems to be frowned upon by a lot of people there for some reason. I think its generally accepted that the local procedure is to overfly and descent to circuit height on the dead side to avoid potential conflicts with outbound traffic, however its been quiet at redcliffe for the last couple of years, so traffic is rarely an issue.