Another passenger jet lost apparently.

[Guest Andys@coffs]

these 'big birds' obviously have smoke or heat detection systems - what sort of fire suppression systems do they have ?............... and at altitude is there any oxygen to burn ?

Hmmm if there isn't I want someone to explain to me how it got to the altitude it was at without expending any kero in the big kero burners...

 

I also want to know if there was no contact with ATC, and no recovery of the flight recorders how they know there was a fire in the dunny! Sounds like wild speculation has grown to become fact in the absence of any.

 

I reckon it was the jihadist in seat 24A myself.....OMG I've become an avaiation specialist and can throw RADALT, ADSB and IFF around with the best of them......come on down the media, bring your cheque books!

 

 

[Geoff13]

I also want to know if there was no contact with ATC, and no recovery of the flight recorders how they know there was a fire in the dunny! Sounds like wild speculation has grown to become fact in the absence of any.

Possibly from telemetry sent to the aircraft manufacturer during the flight, which is apparently how they knew MH370 was still flying some time after disappearing.?

 

 

[pmccarthy]

There is definitely going to be a conspiracy. Did you know an anagram for Egypt Air MS804 is RIG MY TAPES 804?

 

 

[red750]

The thot plickens.

 

EgyptAir: Pilots ‘saw UFO with lights’

 

 

[dutchroll]

these 'big birds' obviously have smoke or heat detection systems - what sort of fire suppression systems do they have ?............... and at altitude is there any oxygen to burn ?

There are smoke detection systems in the cargo holds, toilets and avionics bay. There are fire suppression systems in the engines and cargo holds.

Inside the cabin, the "fire suppression systems" are the numerous hand-held BCF fire extinguishers around the place. Usually they're located in the vicinity of the doors on both sides, and in the cockpit.

 

If the cabin in pressurised to say 5000ft, then there's the same amount of oxygen to burn in a fire as if you were skiing at Thredbo or Perisher. Plenty.

 

The ACARS (Aeronautical Radio Inc. Communication Addressing and Reporting System) - the VHF/Satcom data system which communicates back and forth to home base and various other places - on many of these aircraft will immediately send automated maintenance messages back to the operating company's engineering people when the system detects certain malfunctions.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

The thot plickens.EgyptAir: Pilots ‘saw UFO with lights’

“Then it disappeared all of a sudden. We are guessing that it was a UFO.”

 

Wow they didn't know what it was so they are guessing it was a UFO, these guys are clever ...

 

 

[facthunter]

Does an electrical failure trigger a few failure messages? From the smallness of the "bits" it looks like an explosion. Bomb or SAM? No voice transmission....Nev

 

 

[dutchroll]

On ACARS I assume you mean? I'm not totally familiar with the whole gamut of messages which pop up on the computer screen at the Maintenance Watch desk, but I'm pretty sure that any major system failures and also a whole bunch of minor ones will be sent basically straight away, so long as the ACARS is still operating and has a comms link at the time. AF447 sent a lot of ACARS fault/failure messages before it crashed in the Atlantic. That was all they had to go on before they recovered the CVR and FDR much later.

 

I recall a story some years back on the 747-400 when one of our crews enroute across the Pacific got a satcom call from Maintenance saying "hey guys we've been watching your #2 engine oil quantity which seems to be getting some strange indications. Can you keep a close eye on it?" This is a parameter which is displayed on the secondary screen, but that screen is not usually selected in the cruise, and won't pop up until it goes out of limits. The system had sent this data to home base before the crew knew about it.

 

 

[Teckair]

“Then it disappeared all of a sudden. We are guessing that it was a UFO.”Wow they didn't know what it was so they are guessing it was a UFO, these guys are clever ...

Obviously it was some kid flying a drone.

 

 

[dsam]

The "on-topic" parts of this conversation lead me to wonder how soon the flight data recorder, and cockpit voice recorder will become relics of the past. Modern technology (and Moore's law) will soon overtake "local" storage of data, obviating the need for expensive searches for submerged recorders with failing batteries.

 

I can easily imagine a world where packets of this airborne data are regularly broadcast to satellites & ground based receivers in their entirety. When an incident occurs, the relevant data is immediately accessed by authorised investigators.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Does an electrical failure trigger a few failure messages? From the smallness of the "bits" it looks like an explosion. Bomb or SAM? No voice transmission....Nev

From what I can gather FH there WAS conversation with controllers about smoke ect which was alluded to to start with by Egyptair then denied by someone and then finally I think everyone is now agreeing that there was communication describing smoke and an emergency decent???

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I can easily imagine a world where packets of this airborne data are regularly broadcast to satellites & ground based receivers in their entirety. When an incident occurs, the relevant data is immediately accessed by authorised investigators.

I had a problem with my Tesla a few weeks ago where the key wouldn't open it, the Telsa service guy in Beijing opened it for me but as the door handles didn't auto pop out (because I didn't know I had to touch them first), he turned the headlights on to make sure he had communication, then opened the boot so I could climb in through there and reset the computer. He then virtually watched everything I did as I did it from 2000kms away.

 

 

[dutchroll]

The "on-topic" parts of this conversation lead me to wonder how soon the flight data recorder, and cockpit voice recorder will become relics of the past. Modern technology (and Moore's law) will soon overtake "local" storage of data, obviating the need for expensive searches for submerged recorders with failing batteries.I can easily imagine a world where packets of this airborne data are regularly broadcast to satellites & ground based receivers in their entirety. When an incident occurs, the relevant data is immediately accessed by authorised investigators.

The technology is there. The expense is significant though, so I think it's a while off.

The ACARS system is routinely used in flight for obtaining weather reports etc, which is great as the data is received and automatically printed on the cockpit printer so you have an easily decipherable hardcopy just as if you'd logged onto NAIPS or whatever. I know of a few occasions in years gone by where we have been asked to "restrict" our use of the ACARS and instead attempt to use the old-fashioned method of tuning the HF radio and listening to Volmet broadcasts (with all the problems that sometimes involves) in order to save the company money. The ACARS will use the VHF ground station data network when it can, but when you're out of range, it defaults to satellite comms (if you have satcom fitted). Then it gets expensive.

 

So there is certainly a cost issue among the airlines, and getting an airline to outlay money on systems like these on the off chance that it might be good for accident investigation when the aircraft already have data recorders is a pretty hard ask!

 

 

[facthunter]

Pilots at the time (before mine) tried unsuccesfully to get airborne weather radar installed in airliners. It took the Viscount that lost it's horizontal stabiliser in a storm and ended up in Botany bay less than a couple of miles from where it took off, but wasn't located for many days to hurry the installation of the radar along. The vast amounts involved in searching for airliners, (and the risks) have to be paid by somebody and the anguish of friends and relatives taken into account in all of this.. The rush to the bottom in aviation costs has to be balanced with standards that are universal if they are justified. Nev

 

 

[dsam]

The technology is there. The expense is significant though, so I think it's a while off.

True, there is an expense involved, but how many millions of dollars were spent recently in only one failed search in the Indian ocean?

 

The question of "who" should pay also comes to mind... Taxpayers? Airlines/ticket buyers? Commercial aircraft manufacturers? - All of whom could potentially benefit from a fully "live" connectivity system.

 

 

[dsam]

Presently owned land and facilities recently switched off for VOR/NDB/DME, could be converted into land based telemetry stations for such a system, if there was a will to do so.

 

 

[dutchroll]

Totally agree with what you're saying.

 

However modern day airline executives are usually accountants by trade. Something needs to happen that costs them (ie their company) a huge amount of money before they will invest in anything to prevent it.