Ozkosh at Narromine

[frank marriott]

get airservices to put in a temporary tower

I would advise caution there. It either is CTA or it is not - no inbetween - temporary or not.

 

Then look at 4.2.4-6 of the tech manual and compare it with 11.4 (I think - too pissed off to even look it up) of the New manual (introduced by RAA NOT CASA and supported by the president because he thinks it is a good idea-his words).

 

Would not be many RAA registered aircraft I would submit, quite apart from the requirement of a minimum of a PPL as well.

 

I would suggest everyone read closely what EXTRA conditions this current administration is doing, and if you agree good for you.

 

 

[derekliston]

This has been an excellent discussion, unfortunately the pilot of the Aero-Commander has not been involved in it. I agree that a circuit is difficult bu with a mixture of speeds involved but, and I'm not sure where I read it, aircraft below 70kts @ 500ft, 70-100kts @ 1000ft and 100kts+ @ 1500ft might help. All slower traffic would then be on a pilot's left and lower?

 

 

[DrZoos]

Head in clouds, I dont disagree that if he is within 3nm he is on final and thus has right of way, but prior to that point he must give way....

 

Break break...

 

If his speed was such that joining the circuit was a problem then as derekliston sates above, the should perform circuits at 1500ft,

 

We get these guys try to bully their way straight in all the time , often opposite to the active as they are all coming from Sydney, yet QLink and Velocity seem to fit in quiet easily with much bigger faster aircraft... Its a tactic some of these guys use repeatedly when they shouldnt

 

 

[facthunter]

The speed is specified for the 1500 feet circuit requirement and it's based on circuit speed (downwind) rather than final approach speed. There might be some resentment with people about someone doing the "straight in" approach. Many years ago I was one of them against it, but one advantage is the faster plane lands and gets out of the way of everybody quicker. The least time the plane is mixing it with lots of slower (and sometimes inexperienced) pilots, the better for all concerned. You ARE meant to LOOK for planes which may be on final, before turning base. (Your last time to effectively adjust your circuit) . There has to be appoint at which the FAST (er) straight in plane is considered "in the circuit" and it has to be sometime on final perhaps where it leaves 2000' AGL as lowest height to overfly and join in another way. Wherever it joins, it has to fit in with circuit traffic somehow in a safe manner. Descending onto someone is not safe either, anywhere in the circuit. Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

The general concensus is that it is difficult and there is no way of making it foolproof. Good airmanship is what is needed or as they call it nowadays human factors, but to my mind human factors doesn't cut it.

 

Coming straight in and adjusting speed to accomodate those on final and base ahead of the twin is what i would think best, but no matter what there could be a slow plane join base while the twin was 2 miles out and still try to turn in front of him. Good sensible use of radio and the eyes is imperative.

 

 

[DrZoos]

The 1500 foot circuit is wider and longer than the 1000ft circuit, so the risk of descent onto an aircraft is minimised. The centerline relative to the position on the wing is similar when flying downwind and the base point is both further and longer as the 45° position is higher and thus further out. So any aircraft decending from 1500 foot should not descend onto a 1000 foot circuit if they are correct circuit positions, watching and listening.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

The does seem to be a risk of descending onto a lower level aircraft on final, especially in planes with poor downward visibility.

 

 

[cscotthendry]

The general concensus is that it is difficult and there is no way of making it foolproof.

Yenn:

Very good point. There is no way to make flying, or driving completely fool proof, with the emphasis on Fool. They are among us, they breed and worse yet they drive, fly and vote!

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Head in clouds, I dont disagree that if he is within 3nm he is on final and thus has right of way, but prior to that point he must give way....

Well it's good to see that this discussion has helped some with understanding the rights-of-way rules in the circuit. But - given your statement "but prior to that point he must give way...." you still seem to have some confusion about the way the SIA works. It's ridiculous to say that he should give way prior to being on final ... because to whom would he be giving way when he's more than 3Nm downwind?

 

Let me run through a couple of examples again, to illustrate the possible scenarios. In our following examples we have me flying a Twin Beech, Kaz in her Auster, KG Wilson in his Cougar and Zoo in an Alpi Pioneer -

 

In this first example I'm arriving at Ozkosh Narromine, I've been listening to the other traffic on the VHF for the last 20 minutes while inbound so I know the wind direction and the runway being used and most of the traffic is likely to be a bit slower than me and in any case I'm approaching the duty runway from downwind, so I decide to manoeuvre for an SIA. Consequently, 20NM out I change heading slightly to intercept a point on the runway approach line five miles out. I keep monitoring traffic and ten miles out I make my inbound broadcast and announce my intention to make an SIA. Note that I don't ask anyone anything and I don't announce that I know the wind and runway, which I have ascertained but neither/none of things are required to be requested/announced.

 

Also note that even though the circuit is quite busy I don't have to give way to circuit traffic at this stage because I'm nowhere near the circuit ...

 

Just before 3Nm out I note that I'm nicely lined up on the runway centreline and I have three aircraft in circuit. Kaz has just taken off in the Auster, is at 50kts and has just turned crosswind. KG has just arrived in the Narromine circuit and is at 75kts on early downwind, and he's following Zoo who is at 100kts on late downwind. So at that stage Zoo is number one, KG number two and Kaz number three in circuit. Nobody needs to worry about 'right-of-way' because no-one knows what any of them intend to do - they may be going to land or they may be going to depart the circuit. In fact the only one whose intentions are known to all, is me, because I broadcast it while inbound.

 

Now I broadcast "Traffic Narromine, Twin Beech XYZ is 3 miles NW, two thousand three hundred (or whatever - depending on airfield elevation), inbound runway one one, straight-in approach, established long final. Have 3 traffic in circuit, traffic Narromine". From the moment I said the words "established on final", I jumped to number one in the circuit and the other three move back a place. That means that Zoo must now locate me visually if possible and extend his downwind leg so that he turns Base late enough to allow me to pass ahead of him and be able to clear the runway before he touches down. If he doesn't see me, he must continue his downwind leg until he's certain he's given me enough room to pass ahead of him before he turns Base.

 

No drama, no disruption, no conflict, just a slight change to the flightpath of one aircraft who spends a few moments more in the air than if I hadn't joined the circuit on final. Just like the traffic flow around a roundabout/traffic circle when another car joins and then leaves the flow.

 

OK, example number two starts identical to the previous one - I'm arriving at Ozkosh Narromine, I've been listening to the other traffic on the VHF for the last 20 minutes while inbound so I know the wind direction and the runway being used and most of the traffic is likely to be a lot slower than me and I'm approaching the duty runway from downwind anyway, so I decide to manoeuvre for an SIA. Consequently, 20NM out I change heading slightly to intercept a point on the runway approach line five miles out. I keep monitoring traffic and ten miles out I make my inbound broadcast and announce my intention to make an SIA. Note that I don't ask anyone anything and I don't announce that I know the wind and runway, which I have ascertained but neither/none of things are required to be requested/announced.

 

Also note that even though the circuit is quite busy I don't have to give way to circuit traffic at this stage because I'm nowhere near the circuit ...

 

Just before 3Nm out I note that I'm nicely lined up on the runway centreline and I have three aircraft in circuit. And this is where things are slightly different from the previous example - Kaz is at 50kt 1000' AGL on early downwind, KG has just turned Base and has slowed right down to 55kt just in case Zoo doesn't clear the runway quickly because he's a bit closer behind Zoo than he would prefer to be, and Zoo is at 65kt performing a last visual check for traffic on final, before turning on to final himself.

 

I broadcast almost exactly the same as before "Traffic Narromine, Twin Beech XYZ is 3 miles NW, two thousand three hundred (or whatever - depending on airfield elevation), inbound runway one one, straight-in approach. Established on long final number three to the Pioneer and Cougar (or just 'number three'), traffic Narromine".

 

Once again, I really don't have to 'Give Way' to anyone, I just take my place in the queue as number three and make sure that I don't impede Zoo or KG who is following him. If it does get too crowded and I'm likely to land before KG has cleared the runway I just move to the dead side of the circuit and and broadcast my new intention of going-around and joining the circuit on upwind, while climbing back to circuit height. Once again, no drama, no disruption, no conflict.

 

We get these guys try to bully their way straight in all the time , often opposite to the active as they are all coming from Sydney, yet QLink and Velocity seem to fit in quiet easily with much bigger faster aircraft... Its a tactic some of these guys use repeatedly when they shouldnt

You do seem to have a bit of a 'thing' where it comes to professional pilots carrying out their duties, and on more than one occasion you've expressed your grievances on this forum, even to the extent of calling them morons.

 

I'd suggest you might keep in mind that they're probably fifty or a hundred times more experienced than the average weekend warrior and far more likely to know the procedures to the letter.

 

If you ever get the opportunity to fly with them you'll also see that they're generally exceptionally calm and collected, even when under extreme pressure - times when the hobby pilot would be a mess of sweat and lather. Your 'moment' with the bushfire helicopters was probably a good example of that. When they're on essential services emergency work, what was probably a matter of everyday ops to them was enough to send you off the rails.

 

As for bullying - I rather doubt it, you might have seen one runway used in one direction ten minutes ago, but that doesn't make it the 'duty runway'. It's only the duty runway if traffic are actually in circuit at the time. Otherwise, if they call in for a runway when there's no circuit direction actually established at that moment, then there's nothing to stop them establishing their own circuit direction.

 

Note CAR 116B (2) The rules are the following:

 

 

 

(a) before starting the approach, the pilot must determine:

 

 

 

(i) the wind direction at the aerodrome; and

 

 

 

(ii) the runways in use at the aerodrome;

 

So - they'd know the wind direction and if no runway is actually in use then they can choose which one they would like to use.

 

>

 

>

 

OK - back to giving way when joining circuit (by the way, 'real pilots' talk about who has priority, not who should be 'giving way') - so, what if I decide to join the circuit on Base instead of long final? How about if someone's on downwind, can I join on Base and thereby join the circuit ahead of them?

 

Before anyone shoots me down by saying I can't, from the VFRG -

 

Joining on base leg – Pilots should be mindful that the following types of incidents are more common when joining on the base leg:

 

 

• landing downwind in direct conflict with other traffic using the into-wind runway
   
   
  
• having to go around from late final due to other aircraft or vehicles on the runway
   
   
  
• landing on a closed runway or at a closed aerodrome.
   
   
  

 

 

Joining on the base leg is not a standard procedure. CASA recommends that pilots join the circuit on either the crosswind (midfield) or downwind leg. However, pilots who choose to join on base leg should only do so if they:

 

 

• have determined the:
   
   
  wind direction and speed
   
   
  
• runway in use
   
   
  
• circuit direction
   
   
  
• presence of obstructions on the runway and
   
   
  
• serviceability of the aerodrome and runway
   
   
  

 

 

[*]give way to other circuit traffic and ensure the aircraft can safely (no traffic conflict likely) join the base leg applicable to the circuit direction in use at the standard height and

 

[*]broadcast their intentions.

 

Note

 

Base leg joins must be conducted in accordance with the circuit directions as published in the ERSA. If joining base cannot be conducted to meet the above criteria, pilots should descend on the non-active side of the circuit.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Very helpful HITC.

 

Although to be nit picky no twin Beech pilot would be listening for 20 minutes before arriving, they would still be northwest of Alice at that time!

 

 

[DrZoos]

Hitc

 

Some nice effort put in that post...

 

Your example is not similar to the examples im siting, i can see your point though.

 

3 in the circuit on Saturday and a baron tries to come in opposite....after someone telling him 21 was the active he called 5 mile final straight in 03.... This happens reasonably regularly...its not proffesionalism or good airmanship.

 

He reluctantly changed to 21 after another not so subtle reminder...not by me...

 

 

[Happyflyer]

I disagree that a SIA has right of way after calling 3 mile final. The requirement to give way to all traffic in the circuit is a stand alone statement in the regs in my opinion and not dependant on where he is.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

I disagree that a SIA has right of way after calling 3 mile final. The requirement to give way to all traffic in the circuit is a stand alone statement in the regs in my opinion and not dependant on where he is.

Well, whoever is right about this, it's quite clear that there are just as many who aren't. And that means there's a very real and concerning possibility that one day two aircraft are going to come into conflict at the Base/Final point of a circuit, both believing that the other is going to give way.

 

This is clearly a serious safety hazard and some action must therefore be taken to ensure that we're all on the same songsheet, so to speak.

 

Consequently I have emailed the following to the RAAus Ops Manager -

 

Attention: Operations Manager - RAAus - 19th October 2016

 

 

 

Due to peoples' differing interpretation of the Regulations (specifically CAR 166B) it has become apparent that a situation exists where two pilots can both believe they have right-of-way in the circuit. This could very easily result in a mid-air collision.

 

 

 

I refer you to a thread on an Australian internet forum where the recent Ozkosh at Narromine is being discussed. Ozkosh%20at%20Narromine']In Post #201[/url] a person who attended the fly-in commented about an aircraft that performed a Straight In Approach (SIA), albeit that the aircraft did not properly satisfy the requirements for it.

 

 

 

Since then the matter of SIAs has been extensively discussed and it is evident that people have opposing interpretations of who has priority, and when.

 

 

 

On one side of the discussion people understand that once an aircraft is established on final approach that aircraft then has priority over all others in the circuit regardless of whether that aircraft became established on the final approach from a standard circuit entry or from an SIA.

 

 

 

On the other side of the discussion people understand that if an aircraft is established on the final leg having performed an SIA then that aircraft must give way to all others in the circuit - Ozkosh%20at%20Narromine']see Post #263.[/url]

 

 

 

Consequently, having performed an SIA and become established on final approach while there was no other traffic on Base or Final, some would then understand that they then have priority over an aircraft which is on, for example, late downwind. However, the pilot of the aircraft on downwind might then turn onto Base and understand that he has priority over the aircraft which is already on Final, because that aircraft is on a Final which resulted from having performed an SIA circuit entry rather than a standard circuit entry.

 

 

 

The very fact that this discussion is taking place indicates that the matter of SIAs (and probably also that of entry to circuit via the Base leg) is not being adequately addressed in pilot training via our FTFs. I have taken the step of discussing the matter with an instructor in one RAAus FTF and while he is fully conversant with the procedures himself, he said that not much was being taught to students about SIAs because they like to encourage people to use standard circuits.

 

 

 

This is not an acceptable approach to the situation because RAAus aircraft and RAAus-trained pilots are increasingly mixing with GA Private- and Commercial-trained pilots, to whom the SIA procedure is taught, and many regularly use it and would expect other aircraft in the circuit to know who has right-of-way, and when.

 

 

 

I urge you to address this matter most urgently by email to all FTFs and RAAus members, with a plain-speak explanation of the correct procedure to ensure, at the very least, that all our pilots are aware of their obligations when encountering other aircraft that are performing SIAs.

 

 

 

 

 

Kind regards,

 

 

 

 

 

 

By autoreply I immediately received the following back from [email protected] -

 

 

 

Please accept this message as confirmation that your enquiry has been received at Recreational Aviation Australia (RAAus) and will be attended to as soon as possible.

 

 

[Soleair]

A worthwhile & well presented letter. It will be interesting to hear the Ops Manager's response, & how long it takes to reply (and become established training in FTFs).

 

 

[storchy neil]

thank you HITC gave you the winner this is the way at last the readers and posters can at least see what you have written and that concern for others safety and yours is paramount neil

 

 

[Happyflyer]

CAAP 166-1 is CASAs interpretation on the ive way legislation including straight in approaches. I have pasted the relevant paragraph below. To me it's clear the the SIA pilot must give way to all cct traffic at all times.

 

6.7 Straight-in approaches

 

6.7.1 Straight-in approaches are not a recommended standard procedure. However, Regulation 166B of CAR does not preclude pilots from conducting straight-in approaches provided certain conditions are met. Pilots who choose to adopt a straight-in approach should only do so when it does not disrupt, or conflict with, the flow of circuit traffic. Paragraph 166 (2) (b) of CAR requires a pilot conducting a straight-in approach to give way to any other aircraft established and flying in the circuit pattern. Nonetheless, pilots conforming to the circuit pattern – particularly on the base leg – should continue to check for traffic entering along the final approach path.

 

 

[frank marriott]

CAAP 166-1 is CASAs interpretation on the ive way legislation including straight in approaches. I have pasted the relevant paragraph below. To me it's clear the the SIA pilot must give way to all cct traffic at all times.6.7 Straight-in approaches

 

6.7.1 Straight-in approaches are not a recommended standard procedure. However, Regulation 166B of CAR does not preclude pilots from conducting straight-in approaches provided certain conditions are met. Pilots who choose to adopt a straight-in approach should only do so when it does not disrupt, or conflict with, the flow of circuit traffic. Paragraph 166 (2) (b) of CAR requires a pilot conducting a straight-in approach to give way to any other aircraft established and flying in the circuit pattern. Nonetheless, pilots conforming to the circuit pattern – particularly on the base leg – should continue to check for traffic entering along the final approach path.

The ops reply will certainly be interersting. To me,at least, it is quite clear but that's just another opinion.

 

Nothing to stop you advising heavier/faster traffic that you will track as number two - airmanship and generally appreciated.

 

 

[facthunter]

This is a bit of a dog's breakfast. You will find other rules that cover general situations. ie The PIC must not deliberately put the aircraft into an unsafe situation . A landing aircraft on final has priority over other traffic.

 

A straight in approach not being a recommended procedure. This is irrelevant. IF it's a PERMITTED procedure then that's that. There are rules (or should be) covering all possibilities. One is that pilots(s) on base should look for traffic on final. In a side by side, from the left seat vision to the right is often not optimal. In a turn to the left impossible, sometimes. That's one of the reasons a left circuit is standard unless specified otherwise.

 

Give way to all traffic in the circuit. If you apply that as some suggest you won't make a SIA if any aircraft are in the circuit at all, just to be safe. SIA 's are useful. Most feeder airlines do them and would probably cause more dangerous situations to happen if they flew the normal circuit, mixing it with the circuit traffic for longer times. The 1500 ft circuit is for aircraft that do OVER 125 kts on downwind normally as per the POH. It's not what you CAN do. It's what's normal, and it's based on airspeed . Nev

 

 

[storchy neil]

Flying xxxx I call three ml final 36 where in the hell am I I'm on bloody FINAL Neil

 

 

[facthunter]

As performance goes, there can be a big variation and that's the issue here. If you are doing a glide approach in a thruster, with a headwind of 15 knots say at 400' final you will be about 500 metres from the threshold. Whether you are doing a powered approach or not will not significantly affect your groundspeed which will be rather slow say 20 knots. If you have positioned yourself a long way downwind you are more to likely get in the way of other planes, if you have a slow G/S. OK you fly your plane, let others fly theirs but a bit of give and take and appreciation of the big picture helps. I recall in the 60's being slotted in by the tower at Sydney Rwy 16 and being aware of a DC-6B not far behind me, did the approach faster than I would normally cruise the Auster J1 n. The headwind made the groundspeed agonising in the circumstances, and I didn't fancy the paperwork of having the larger plane go around even though the judgement was the tower's. Being rapidly overhauled by an aircraft behind you is not a good place to be. If THEY lose sight of you it's very dangerous, because there's nothing you can do. You can't see them. Nev

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

I received the following 'reply' from RAAus -

 

Dear Mr X

 

 

 

Thank you for your report. Occurrence OCC0788 has been lodged with the details you have provided.

 

 

 

This is to confirm the receipt of your hazard report and thank you for providing the information to Recreational Aviation Australia.

 

 

 

The process relating to these reports could involve further action, recommendations or follow up. As such, your report in invaluable to us and will be analysed and could affect policy decisions relating to assessment of pilot experience or conditions, aircraft design or training, or simply added to an archive for future analysis. We will contact you if we need further information or clarification of your report.

 

 

 

Feedback on the outcome from your report is contained in your members portal on the Recreational Aviation Australia website. Please feel free to contact Safety on 02 6280 4700 or email [email protected] to discuss further.

 

 

 

Kind regards

 

Janelle Wayling

 

Safety Co-ordinator

 

 

Serious fun, stay safe

 

I'd be interested to hear what folks think ...

 

As far as I'm concerned I'd say it reads like a stock reply and they either haven't read, or certainly haven't understood the content of the email I sent. It appears to me to be about as much of a 'non-reply' as it could be.

 

Does anyone think they plan on looking into it any further, or would you think this is intended to be final the brush-off?

 

 

[facthunter]

it's what you said . A standard acknowledgement of receipt of that type of report. I think it indicates they have received your report. That's all. You can't put any further import on it.. Time will tell. I doubt they will ignore it under the circumstances. Nev

 

 

[storchy neil]

Hitc I personally congratulate you for doing not seeming to do

 

I am waiting like you

 

failure to take no further action will be in breach of the deed of agreement neil

 

 

[M61A1]

Maybe we need to consider what "give way " means. If there is no conflict, no-one needs to give way (allowing for correct separation of course). Like QLD traffic at a roundabout, a lot of them think that give way means to stop and wait for everything with several kilometres....it doesn't. It's not a queue, all you have to do is "slot in".

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...slot in, like a zipper.