Mag Checks

[SSCBD]

I'd implement my PAX endo training and smack you in the nose if you reach for my mag switches!

You would be way toooooo busy trying to figure out why you rudder was jammed, while I shut the engine down. You will learn grasshopper ( smile )

 

 

[Fishla]

You would be way toooooo busy trying to figure out why you rudder was jammed, while I shut the engine down. You will learn grasshopper ( smile )

"Your aircraft!"

 

 

[Ultralights]

what happens when you go further with your flying, and do something like spin training and the engine stops then? (which it will do with a carby engine and a fully developed spin),

 

and yes, this scenario has happened in the past. student went on to do solo spins, engine stopped, (even though the student had done spins where the engine stopped with an instructor). during his spin practice, the engine stopped, the student then went on to call mayday and made a great forced landing into a small private field. it was the second time an engine had stopped on him in flight, and the first time solo, he said he panicked and forgot how to do a mid air restart.

 

 

[SSCBD]

"Your aircraft!"

No mate - old, bold instructors play chicken real well. - its all yours!

 

 

[Fishla]

No mate - old, bold instructors play chicken real well. - its all yours!

I'd press the starter and hope to blow some of your expensive avionics. :)

 

 

[SDQDI]

Personally I think engine out training is a good idea. BUT I do think strongly that it should be well briefed beforehand, I wouldn't mind a cfi killing the engine with me if we had talked about it beforehand but if they did it without briefing I would not be as happy.

 

 

[dutchroll]

what happens when you go further with your flying, and do something like spin training and the engine stops then? (which it will do with a carby engine and a fully developed spin),and yes, this scenario has happened in the past. student went on to do solo spins, engine stopped, (even though the student had done spins where the engine stopped with an instructor). during his spin practice, the engine stopped, the student then went on to call mayday and made a great forced landing into a small private field. it was the second time an engine had stopped on him in flight, and the first time solo, he said he panicked and forgot how to do a mid air restart.

In all the many fully developed spins I did in a Chipmunk (Gypsy Major engine - about as basic carby engine as you get these days), I never once had the engine stop. Heck I've even sat there demonstrating during the spin how the incorrect application of spin recovery technique doesn't do anything in that aircraft!

Even a Tiger Moth engine which stops during manoeuvring will normally restart on application of positive G. If it doesn't, apply more positive G.

 

But how are you going to make that point by switching the mags off on final approach? And how would that student's reaction to his engine stopping during a spin have changed by having the mags switched off on final approach on a check flight?

 

You see......this is the problem. People don't relate the specific training scenario to any benefits in real life situations. They just do it out of some misplaced belief that if the student handles it, everything is good. If he doesn't, everything is bad. Is it really, though?

 

 

[Ultralights]

i have had 2 CFI's turn the engine off on me, both times, at about 4000 ft above an airfield surrounded by open fields. and had the engine stop on my during spin training, the training must have worked, as i have no worries whatsoever now if the engine stops in flight.

 

 

[storchy neil]

what some are saying that bloody prop only stops 3000 or 4000 ft that prop tells you that I am going to stop bullxxx it can and will stop at anytime get with the real world

 

twice it has been done to me bloody good lesson once on late final teaches you to stay within glide distance off field and once at 3000 ft get on that strip below is all he said neil

 

 

[Downunder]

Are we getting a split here in opinion between GA and RAA aircraft and training?

 

I want to know the aspects of MY RAA aircraft in flight. At my last BFR I had the engine turned off to feel and become familiar with the glide, outside/inside sounds and the whole experience. (a nice runway nearby)

 

I found it rather benign. I am now very much more confident and prepared in handling an engine failure. Mentally and physically.

 

I also wanted to know how to really restart in flight, which again was straight forward.

 

Isn't this is what TRAINING is all about. Preparing someone for an unusual and unfamiliar future situation, whether occurring accidentally or on purpose?

 

Conducting an operation with slight and controlled risk to mitigate a future (significant) event and risk?

 

As far as Mags off on final? I don't believe that is dangerous and doesn't worry me in the least.

 

I have been trained to reach the runway from ANY POINT IN THE CIRCUIT.

 

What is dangerous, is pilots being put in a recoverable situation they have never experienced or trained for........

 

What is dangerous, is aircraft owners not knowing all (or most of) the operational and flight characteristics of the aircraft they own.....

 

 

[frank marriott]

Reducing to idle is sufficient to simulate an engine failure, turning off in a single engine is unnecessary usually conducted by a person with a certain personality. (Even in twins it is only simulated close to the ground) If someone was able to reach past me and touch the mag switches that would be the last time he ever sat I'm my aeroplane. I guess it is a choise thing.

 

 

[dutchroll]

A fixed wing aircraft is a fixed wing aircraft. Sure, recreational aircraft are a bit lighter than GA aircraft, but so what?

 

The training principles are, for the most part, the same or very similar. Engine failure consequences are the same, except maybe in some cases your chosen field could be smaller (except consider something like a Husky, a certified GA plane which lands on a 20 cent piece) or your glide ratio might be better (not necessarily though).

 

Here are some words from Barry Schiff. 28,000 hours in 335 aircraft types. Author of more than 1500 flight articles in 90 aviation magazines, inductee of the Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA) National Flight Instructors Hall of Fame, holder of every available FAA Instructor Rating, recipient of AOPA's L.P. Sharples Perpetual Award, France's Louis Bleriot Medal, etc etc etc:

 

The method used to simulate an engine failure is somewhat controversial. An instructor has four choices. He can (1) close the throttle, (2) lean the mixture to idle cutoff, (3) turn off the magnetos, or (4) turn off the fuel supply. Which of these methods would you recommend?

 

 

 

As far as the engine is concerned, it is best to lean the mixture to idle cutoff while leaving the throttle open. This is because an open throttle permits the cylinders to fill with air and cushion engine deceleration, which reduces internal stresses during the simulation of a sudden engine failure.

 

 

 

Pulling the mixture control, however, actually shuts down the engine. Although this may be perfectly acceptable to the pistons, crankshaft counterweights, and other engine parts, it may not be in the best interest of those on board the aircraft. This is because the engine might not restart on demand, and the practice approach to a forced landing would suddenly become a genuine low-altitude emergency.

 

 

 

A practice power-off approach to a farmer's field usually is terminated by a full-power climb to a safe altitude. But if the engine has been genuinely shut down during descent, it will become quite cool. A quick restart and the application of full power at such a time is unhealthy for any engine. (Powerplant manufacturers also caution against conducting simulated engine failures during extremely cold weather because of the additional wear and tear this might create.)

 

 

 

For similar reasons, neither the magnetos nor the fuel-selector valve should be used to simulate an engine failure. (Turning off the fuel supply to fuel-injected engines is particularly hazardous because these engines can be difficult to restart following fuel starvation.)

 

 

 

Experts at both Teledyne Continental Motors and Textron Lycoming agree, therefore, that closing the throttle is the best way to simulate an engine failure in single-engine aircraft. (Simulating engine failure in a twin will be discussed later).

 

Good to know that RAAus is apparently better informed than Barry Schiff! Here's the full article, including his discussion of FAA accident statistics following simulated engine failure......

 

Sample Chapter - Flying Wisdom, Proficient Pilot 3 by Barry Schiff

 

 

[Scotty 1]

I have had a CFI stop the fan in a glide approach from base. We had already been doing circuits and we were not lined up to touch down on the piano keys but well after them. I felt it was a very safe situation and appropriate action as we were training for that very senerio. He restarted at about 100 ft which disappointed me as I wanted to continue with the dead stick landing. He said he was happy that I could have landed dead stick but for safety would restart the fan. In the right circumstances I believe that is appropriate training.

 

 

[facthunter]

I've had it done by a DCA examiner. It used to be fairly common practice to switch off the key. One time (at least) the key fell to the floor and couldn't be located quickly enough. It wasn't with me, but I believe the report authentic. Most of us knew a few examiners and everything got known on the grapevine, back then.

 

The most common modern practice is to reduce the power to a low setting representing feathered propeller once the actions are called correctly. On a jet it is set to power settings representing one out, (or in some cases two out) with a 3 or more engine aircraft. Failed engine idle, and less power available on the remaining one..

 

On training I only did stopped engine on the air restart( no starter fitted/ assumed) sequence.. Some props will stop during a spin entry in a particular direction. Stopping props deliberately was a pretty rare thing.

 

ALL aeronautical experience teaches you something. Some instructors may feel strongly that the stopped prop is so different it should actually be performed, to demonstrate. The plane may glide better or it may glide worse with an engine idling. You should KNOW whether it is better or worse and the maker ,( or some responsible organisation) should provide reliable guidance as to what to expect.

 

You have to balance the need to know the experience, with the risk involved. An idling engine is fairly unobtrusive. Whether a pilot will panic when an engine stops is hard to assess. With the instructor there in any situation his/her presence will provide an assurance /comfort that isn't there when solo, so it proves little. IF conducted over a landing field with no other traffic with a view to doing an actual landing on a chosen spot, if might be "interesting". Nev

 

 

[biggles]

During my last BFR the CFI shut the engine down at 3000' above the airfield and I had to perform a dead stick landing .... Bob

 

 

[Teckair]

I have had quite a few engine failures sometimes with a student on board but have only ever shut an engine down once deliberately. I would not normally do it unless there was something wrong with the engine which has happened once. There are a stack of reasons not to do it at 1800 revs you could get a explosion in the exhaust which can do damage, on final even worse idea what if the student stuffs the flare? no power to fix it! shock cooling will crack heads my advice is if your instructor does that look for another one. I think it is it is unprofessional and a bad idea. I know of one case where a instructor caused a bad crash just by pulling the power at the wrong time. It doesn't matter how nice you think your instructor is, there are plenty of bad instructors out there that students who don't know any better think are great.

 

 

[dutchroll]

Yeah there are many valid concerns about how practice engine failures are conducted, and as always, evidence of past practice is not necessarily a good thing.

 

Another example which springs to mind is that you haven't declared any sort of emergency. Therefore people aren't necessarily going to get out of your way. What if during the course of your "practice glide" to the airfield you then need that power suddenly.....only to discover it isn't there because you turned it off? That's in addition to the engine handling issues highlighted by Schiff.

 

I see a number of negatives with potentially significant consequences, but no real demonstrated positives or training outcomes (just personal anecdotes) to switching it off in a single engine aircraft at all, and especially at low altitude.

 

 

[poteroo]

It's not worth the risk to shut down an engine anywhere low and not overhead the airstrip by several 1000 ft, (in the complete absence of any other traffic, no stock or wildlife on the strip, and no wind changes evident). As for restarts - my experience has been that engines usually die for a reason, and fiddling about with a restart as part of your 'vital actions' is just wasting valuable time that you should be employing to select a better landing area and positioning so as to be 99% sure you'll make it. To be doing it on final is foolhardy to say the least!

 

I'm not inclined to do engine off sequences for the fundamental reason that once you begin this demonstration - you are narrowing down your options = increasing risk. (see Barry Schiff v3) If I can't sufficiently train someone to glide with the engine at idle, then I shouldn't be doing instruction. An experienced instructor can pull power at a position where they can see it will require a really accurate glide at best L/D to make it. I'm less worried about whether the pilot can glide without engine or noise - because the requirement is exactly the same = best L/D and direct to the best choice of emergency landing area. Frankly, most pilots spend too much time dithering about with so called 'vital actions' instead of aviating & navigating to a landing area.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Roscoe]

Anjum- back to my Post #2.

 

There seems to be a trend coming through by very experienced Pilots whereby shutting off the Mags on final is not a good idea. I agree with this.

 

Now that you have the benefit of this knowledge, again i suggest that you sit down with your Instructor and throw it around with him.

 

See what he says, and consider that in the light of all these Posts.

 

Regards.

 

 

[octave]

I think it is up to all pilots and instructors to within the rules and regs decide if a particular training procedure is worth it in a cost benefit sense. As I was taught, I always keep my hand on the throttle from the base turn onwards. Although I plan to reach the runway without adding power there are circumstances beyond the pilot's control. I do recall on final for a dusty strip suddenly realizing that there was a flock of dusty coloured sheep grazing on the strip

 

I recorded this clip a few years ago whilst taking my Dad for a fly. The weather on this day seemed perfect however on late final the aircraft was suddenly upset by a freak gust of wind (from about the 40 second mark in this clip) This did require prompt application of power!

 

 

 

[storchy neil]

Another example which springs to mind is that you haven't declared any sort of emergency good pick up dutchroll on both occasions that I did declare a simulated mayday to the instructor

 

the instructor had on several occasions just pulled power to idle to simulate engine out not a problem when there is no noise that is a hole new ball game it aint a bloody game that is serious shit and some have no idea what to do

 

as I see it an engine at idle to simulate engine out does not have the impact of the real thing

 

some instructors get a little annoyed at being called xxxholxx for doing it neil

 

 

[facthunter]

If a pilot, even early in his career, doesn't appreciate that the plane will FLY OK without engine power something in the instruction is sadly missing. Planes don't just fall out of the sky when the noise stops. If you are the type of guy/ gal who freezes /panics perhaps flying as the pilot is not for you.

 

No one actually knows how they will behave in an emergency. but an engine out in all but the most critical circumstances should not be something that can't be managed quite well with a fair chance of a good outcome. You're supposed to have taken it into account in your take off "briefing" and your cross country planning. IF you haven't then you may be totally unprepared mentally and put in a poor performance as a consequence. Nev

 

 

[aro]

Instructors should check they are covered by their insurance if there is an accident due to the engine shutdown, e.g. if the engine does not restart.

 

 

[Ultralights]

i have only ever had 1 real life engine failure.. on mid final, in a jabiru. either way, engine off or not, get in the habit of not needing power for the final part of the approach

 

 

[facthunter]

You wouldn't fly on gusty days then. For a motor to fail on part throttle something quite bad has to be wrong with it. They still stall on idle if it's not set right. If you always land well in to the field, when you have a short strip you won't cope well with it. Nev