Should OzKosh be designated "Radio equipped aircraft only"?

[cscotthendry]

Very interesting video! The gear warning was quite loud on the video, but I'm wondering whether it was also piped through the intercom to the headsets.

 

They say that there are two types of pilots who fly with retracts, those who have landed wheels up, and those who will.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Very interesting video! The gear warning was quite loud on the video, but I'm wondering whether it was also piped through the intercom to the headsets.They say that there are two types of pilots who fly with retracts, those who have landed wheels up, and those who will.

I've flown a Trinidad but can't recall whether the alarms are wired to the intercom or not. What I do recall is that they're a very quiet aircraft and there wouldn't be any problem hearing the alarms even if they're not, and especially when the engine power is pulled back for approach and landing.

 

Also - when the alarm starts warbling, the lower tone is the stall-warning so whatever the arrangement the aircraft would be configured so that the pilot could hear the warnings when they sounded.

 

There's a third kind of pilot who flies retracts, it's the kind who've been given a sufficiently sobering scare to always do their checks in future. Mine was deliberately set up for me by my instructor in cahoots with the Tower at Coolangatta during the last stages of my training. My instructor was former RAAF and a real stickler for procedures. He felt I was doing my checks too much by rote so without my knowing it he had a chat with the duty controller and asked him to make me super-busy during my next circuits.

 

I was on short final and was asked to expedite as a 767 was on long final behind me. Nearly at the piano keys I was told to go around as there wasn't enough clearance for the heavy. I cleaned up and went around and was on late downwind again when I was given a runway direction change, I cleaned up again and went around for the opposing downwind, by this time I had a mild sweat running and my radio work wasn't quite as polished as I'd have liked ... at mid-downwind the instructor keyed the mic twice which I later discovered was a cue for the controller to interrupt my checks. He asked me if I could see the traffic ahead and also behind me.

 

There wasn't any traffic but it had my head on a rapid swivel until the instructor pointed out that I was late turning Base and he asked me to do a flapless approach this time. Between them they kept up the pressure until, on very short final I heard a just-audible whisper which said "Pilots who don't do their checks will one day land with their gear UP". It didn't sink in for quite a while and we were close to touching down when the instructor began to lower the flaps which kept us in the air long enough for me to realise what I'd done, or rather not done, and firewall the throttle. I've been fairly insistent about my checks since that day, as you might imagine.

 

 

[gareth lacey]

Evans Head this year,sat morning went up for a coastal run , back at Evans Head heard a Pipestrel call 3 miles inbound , entered downwind 18 half way downwind heard Pipestrel call Downwind rny 18 pax couldnt see him nor I ,dropped down to 500 feet and he was overhead me he didnt see or hear me landed safely but to close for me

 

cheers gareth

 

 

[facthunter]

When someone gives an incorrect position in the circuit, particularly with less than perfect vis but still VFR you believe him/her and keep looking where they said they were, till you arrive at the conclusion you are going mad or blind OR he gave the wrong position. Let me assure you this isn't safe. You also get people who go quiet when you ask them their position in the circuit or to the aerodrome. A radio IS a good thing but using it properly is essential. If people talk over each other (clutter) or say too much or won't respond, then you might as well revert to the Mk1 eyeball. I'd say our radio procedures are far from good so don't expect it to be free of incidents, just by having everyone have some sort of radio on board. You can organise "noradio" procedures to work safely. It requires people to know what to do, but what's new there? Nev

 

 

[cscotthendry]

I've flown a Trinidad but can't recall whether the alarms are wired to the intercom or not. What I do recall is that they're a very quiet aircraft and there wouldn't be any problem hearing the alarms even if they're not, and especially when the engine power is pulled back for approach and landing.Also - when the alarm starts warbling, the lower tone is the stall-warning so whatever the arrangement the aircraft would be configured so that the pilot could hear the warnings when they sounded.

 

There's a third kind of pilot who flies retracts, it's the kind who've been given a sufficiently sobering scare to always do their checks in future. Mine was deliberately set up for me by my instructor in cahoots with the Tower at Coolangatta during the last stages of my training. My instructor was former RAAF and a real stickler for procedures. He felt I was doing my checks too much by rote so without my knowing it he had a chat with the duty controller and asked him to make me super-busy during my next circuits.

 

I was on short final and was asked to expedite as a 767 was on long final behind me. Nearly at the piano keys I was told to go around as there wasn't enough clearance for the heavy. I cleaned up and went around and was on late downwind again when I was given a runway direction change, I cleaned up again and went around for the opposing downwind, by this time I had a mild sweat running and my radio work wasn't quite as polished as I'd have liked ... at mid-downwind the instructor keyed the mic twice which I later discovered was a cue for the controller to interrupt my checks. He asked me if I could see the traffic ahead and also behind me.

 

There wasn't any traffic but it had my head on a rapid swivel until the instructor pointed out that I was late turning Base and he asked me to do a flapless approach this time. Between them they kept up the pressure until, on very short final I heard a just-audible whisper which said "Pilots who don't do their checks will one day land with their gear UP". It didn't sink in for quite a while and we were close to touching down when the instructor began to lower the flaps which kept us in the air long enough for me to realise what I'd done, or rather not done, and firewall the throttle. I've been fairly insistent about my checks since that day, as you might imagine.

Another interesting story HITC!

I had the opportunity to go up into the tower YBSU. While I was up there I watched the controller interacting with the traffic. Every time an aircraft was on final, he would pick up a pair of binoculars and look at the plane. I asked him why and he said something like "You'd be surprised how often I remind pilots to put the gear down".

 

BUT, I call thread drift here...

 

 

 

[SDQDI]

I voted no.

 

I do fly with a radio and I won't start on how many times I've stuffed up, or others have stuffed up or radios have been faulty as that isn't the deciding factor for me. At the end of the day we are all rec flyers and I would think the majority of us are against further rules that could hinder a fellow flyer (if not ourselves).

 

The argument "because it will be busy" doesn't hold up for me as the busier it is the radio will become clogged and people listening will be overloaded with calls which would be counter intuitive to safety.

 

IMO Nev has the right idea, organise from the start procedures that will aid in safe arrivals for everyone. If done properly the radio then becomes a handy aid but not the primary way to get into the field safely.

 

Reading up on CASAs radio procedures they note that in the majority of close calls that are blamed on dodgy radios most of them are unable to reproduce that fault later which I interpret (I guess this is getting to be like he said, they said, she said Chinese whispers) to say that most errors in radios are operator error. I know I said I wasn't going to say anything I'll stop now.

 

 

[facthunter]

Knock the squelch knob? nev

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

This is why I proposed some time ago, to put up a repeater that records a transmission and plays it back. Mark Kyle implemented this and obtained a license from ACMA to do it. The system suffered from the inevitable teething problems, but wasn't utilised by the local pilots much anyway. Mark did this at his own expense and effort and it would have been good to have got the local flying community behind it. I don't know if he has resurrected the system, but I still think it's a good idea that should be implemented nation-wide.

3 different radios and 2 different voice storage units later and it still is not how I want it to be. It has been put on the back burner for some time now but I have been trialling another voice storage system that I am writing the software for at the moment. So the project is still around and also I have all the licences still in place. Maybe later this year it will be back up again

 

 

[Jaba-who]

There's a lot of emotional overlay in some of these posts - "radio has its drawbacks and situations where it can fail so it's crap" - " you should be looking because "see and be seen" is the saviour of VFR flying etc"

 

After nearly twenty years of group flying on treks round Australia with as many as 15 aircraft in company and anything up to 10 aircraft in the circuit of non-towered small airports at the same time I can tell you that to rely on just one or the other is asking for disaster when there are lots of aircraft around.

 

None of the previously mentioned are reliable 100 % of the time and every available resource must be used to its maximal availability.

 

And I have to say that at times the least reliable is the eyeball.

 

I have lost count of the number of times we had aircraft in contact, within a mile or two of each other with ongoing radio commentary about positions and and have the small aircraft or helicopter to blend into ground or cloud and literally can disappear in front of your eyes.

 

Equally when most aircraft have lots of visual dead zones there is a further worry when lots of aircraft converge, climb or descend into each other's space.

 

Equally radio chatter is the worst cause of radio failure. Too many callers talking for too long. Talking about inconsequential stuff while the real important staff is prevented from broadcasting.

 

Humans have a very high propensity for wanting single solutions for problems and when it doesn't work or there is a rare or uncommon scenario it can fail they claim it is useless.

 

We need to take everything that's available and use it all while not disregarding something and while being knowledgable enough to know when the modality may fail and work around it.

 

 

[Nobody]

The original question asked if ozkosh should be radio only, not the virtue of radio in general. While I think that a radio is a great thing to have and in general would encourage everyone to have one, it would be disappointing if people didn't come to an event because they didn't have a radio. When I go there I want to be able to see vintage aircraft and basic ultralights that are not much more than a folding chair with a sail and engine for which a radio is just too impractical.

 

Surely the great aviation minds of australia can work out a way for non radio aircraft to come to a flyin, they do at Oshkosh. If we want an event for all facets of aviation we need to find a way to make it happen.

 

 

[Garfly]

This runway incursion incident at Taree is a lesson in how the best of radio intentions can fall short:

 

Investigation: AO-2012-043 - Runway incursion - SAAB 340, VH-ZLH / Vans RV10, VH-PGX, Taree Airport, NSW, 23 March 2012

 

 

 

[cscotthendry]

A couple of posters have mentioned that non radio equipped aircraft are allowed to fly into Oshkosh. Can someone fill us in on how they do that?

 

Call me skeptical, but I have watched in cockpit video of the arrival at Oshkosh and it is very radio intense and the traffic is frantic paced. I just can't imagine how they slot non radio aircraft into that unless, like Avalon have a separate runway for recreational aircraft, they have a separate runway, for the non radio equipped aircraft.

 

Edit:

 

I just looked this up, and the NORDO procedures are for non radio aircraft to land at a nearby airfield, phone the ATC ops people and obtain specific procedures and time to arrive. Also, approval for NORDO aircraft is NOT guaranteed.

 

 

[Nobody]

A couple of posters have mentioned that non radio equipped aircraft are allowed to fly into Oshkosh. Can someone fill us in on how they do that?Call me skeptical, but I have watched in cockpit video of the arrival at Oshkosh and it is very radio intense and the traffic is frantic paced. I just can't imagine how they slot non radio aircraft into that unless, like Avalon have a separate runway for recreational aircraft, they have a separate runway, for the non radio equipped aircraft.

Edit:

 

I just looked this up, and the NORDO procedures are for non radio aircraft to land at a nearby airfield, phone the ATC ops people and obtain specific procedures and time to arrive. Also, approval for NORDO aircraft is NOT guaranteed.

The full NOTAM is available at the link below, page 28 has the no radio arrival bit.

As for not being garunteed they are very accommodating and will almost always say yes. The other option is to find a radio equipped aircraft of similar performance and come as a flight of two.

 

The main point is that no one is banned or excluded, everyone is welcome. If it is going to copy the name then hopefully Ozkosh will copy this attitude too.

 

EAA AirVenture Oshkosh NOTAM | EAA AirVenture Oshkosh

 

 

[SSCBD]

The people that run this should put out a nice piece of paper WITH a circuit diagram drawing that shows people two ways of doing it. One with radio and one without.

 

One simple way is also for non radio aircraft is to fly at 500ft circuit and entry over the top and two defined base turns for both types. It has all been done before. The drawing can be done in crayon even. CASA can issue dispensation for the weekend by the way. Simple.

 

Again ready for bullets on this comments from all the compulsive disorder personalities.

 

 

[cscotthendry]

Again ready for bullets on this comments from all the compulsive disorder personalities.

Agree with your post, but the last bit??? Is that an attempt to be provacative, or an attempt to try and discourage disagreement?

Either way, I think your post stood on its own merits up until the last bit.