Savannah S Build Notes - Some Tools

[rankamateur]

In English that is an angle grinder.

Given the quoted speed of 900 rpm, I would suggest that in English it would be and angle drill as majortom suggested. You could get yourself in all sorts of trouble if you sailed into deburring aluminium parts with and angle grinder doing 10,000 rpm.

 

 

[IBob]

Given the quoted speed of 900 rpm, I would suggest that in English it would be and angle drill as majortom suggested. You could get yourself in all sorts of trouble if you sailed into deburring aluminium parts with and angle grinder doing 10,000 rpm.

Ah, my mistake...still got all your fingers, Major Tom?

 

 

[MajorTom]

Last count: 10....everything o.k. @IBob

So it is an angle drill. Have some waiting, sweping up, preparing days left, before I can try.

3M deburring weels are hard to get here and very expansiv. I was lucky to find some on ebay.

It's kind of funny but sometimes frustrating how the markets differentiate. Actualy I read a lot in this forum and watch how to videos from EAA. When it comes to the question to where to get the recommended stuff it gets difficult.

Put self etching primer into amazon.com. You get 1000 results. Try that on amazon.de. You get none.

 

For large pieces I use a pneumatic die grinder with a smaller wheel similar to the one on the bench grinder. This is done on large sheets that are too big to use the bench Grinder on as well as lightening holes that you can't get the big wheel inside.

 

@Nobody ... thanks I will try it exatly this way. Pneumatic die grinders come in very different versions. What rpm range are you sugesting?

[Nobody]

 

@Nobody ... thanks I will try it exatly this way. Pneumatic die grinders come in very different versions. What rpm range are you sugesting?

 

This is the one I have. I don't know its max RPM. You can control the speed with the lever.

Taylor Angle Die Grinder ADG50 - Cleaveland Aircraft Tool

[Marty_d]

Just wondering, what tools do I need to buy. Some things seem to be nonexistend on the german market.Do I need a Rivet Squeeser? (tried to put this a search into the german ebay and amazon page... no result...)

I've done the small solid rivets on trailing edges with a modified pair of pliers. Pick a fairly large set, grind the teeth flat, and with a large drill bit make a small indentation on the inside face of one side.

 

I added a pair of tubes over the handles to give more leverage.

 

The small solid rivets used on the TE don't need a huge amount of pressure to squeeze them, I found the pliers worked fine.

 

Just practice a bit on scrap before you do anything on your plane!

 

 

 

[IBob]

I've done the small solid rivets on trailing edges with a modified pair of pliers. Pick a fairly large set, grind the teeth flat, and with a large drill bit make a small indentation on the inside face of one side.I added a pair of tubes over the handles to give more leverage.

The small solid rivets used on the TE don't need a huge amount of pressure to squeeze them, I found the pliers worked fine.

 

Just practice a bit on scrap before you do anything on your plane!

 

[ATTACH=full]48024[/ATTACH]

I take my hat off (again) to the skilled builder! This is something like the arrangement suggested in the manual.

However, I think the amateur assembler (like myself) is likely to get a better result using a squeeze, as follows:

 

1. The rivets specified in the manual are hard and do require some pressure.

 

2. The correct snap/die in the squeeze fits the shaped head of the rivet correctly, so does not deform it. This is unlikely to be the case with a drilled indentation.

 

3. The squeeze incorporates a stop. Once set, this means every rivet is squeezed the same (as I understand it, so that the finished diameter is 1.5 times the initial rivet diameter?).

 

4. The shape of the squeeze lends itself to jigging up the trailing edge, as I have described, so as to get a near identical result from rivet to rivet.

 

Here it is on the elevator trim (not jigged, but still using the bench edge as a guide):

 

Savannah S Build Notes - Elevator

 

 

[MajorTom]

What about using a rivet gun and bucking bar to set the solid rivets?

 

 

[IBob]

What about using a rivet gun and bucking bar to set the solid rivets?

See 3 (above).

They are very small rivets.

 

And I assume the squeeze is the better way to do them at the trailing edges, as the ex-airforce sheet metal man down the road, who has all the gear, just used the squeeze to do his.

 

I will ask when I see him, but I think the squeeze, which incorporates a stop, is a better way to get a consistent result, and certainly for the amateur builder.

 

 

[Nobody]

Generally the preference is to squeeze any rivet you can get a squeezer on. It's more consistent, reliable and lower skill level than bucking. Rivers in skins often can't be reached with a squeezer and so must be done with a gun and bar.

 

 

[IBob]

Link to conversation about removing rivets, with very useful looking tool recommended by RankAmateur:

 

building my Savannah-S in germany

 

 

[MajorTom]

Sometimes skins don't lay flat against each other after riveting...

 

I built this easy tool to bent the edge of the upper sheet a little. It works great and you don't even need to disassemble the skins compleatly.

 

 

 

 

 

[Marty_d]

Sometimes skins don't lay flat against each other after riveting...I built this easy tool to bent the edge of the upper sheet a little. It works great and you don't even need to disassemble the skins compleatly.

[ATTACH]50279[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]50280[/ATTACH][ATTACH]50278[/ATTACH]

Genius!

 

 

[M61A1]

See 3 (above).They are very small rivets.

And I assume the squeeze is the better way to do them at the trailing edges, as the ex-airforce sheet metal man down the road, who has all the gear, just used the squeeze to do his.

 

I will ask when I see him, but I think the squeeze, which incorporates a stop, is a better way to get a consistent result, and certainly for the amateur builder.

Yes, most good hand squeezers are infinitely adjustable within their range (or pack the sets with washers). They are great for the small rivets such as the ones on trailing edges. Once set, you can also put two domed rivet sets in and go along and make both sides domed. Looks great.

 

 

[mcrowley]

Sometimes skins don't lay flat against each other after riveting...I built this easy tool to bent the edge of the upper sheet a little. It works great and you don't even need to disassemble the skins compleatly.

[ATTACH]50279[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]50280[/ATTACH][ATTACH]50278[/ATTACH]

Brilliant!!

 

 

[eightyknots]

Clekos.You get a very small number of each with the kit. And a set of cleko pliers. But we won't talk about those.

You need a lot more, the more the better. I asked a few questions on the site here, and averaged the answers.

 

I bought:

 

150 x 5/32" Black

 

400 x 1/8" Copper

 

25 x 3/32" Silver

 

and 2 pairs of cleko pliers that.....actually plier clekos.

 

Fallowdeer dropped by and showed me these, and some work he'd done with them: stepped drills. They drill (and debur) a perfect round hole in sheet metal, to a set size depending on how many steps you go. Something else for my must have list.

 

Oh, you found the 'pliers'......My suggestion would be to buy or borrow a proper rivet squeeze: the idea of making your own is a bit of a joke for several reasons, (though anything is possible).

You'll also need to buy the correct die/snap to go in the squeeze. This is dished to fit the curve of the rivet head correctly. And also buy the correct rivets (I was able to do that locally).

 

The rivet spec (which will tell you what die/snap to buy) is in the very first part of the manual, with all the general info on rivets and bolts.[ATTACH=full]47980[/ATTACH]

I have a few questions about your helpful tool thread:

 

1. With more experience, do you think that these cleco numbers were about right?

 

2. Why did you need to buy two cleco pliers?

 

3. Did you go for a metric or imperial stepped drill?

 

4. At which outlet did you obtain the rivets and rivet squeeze locally?

 

5. Which emery wheel did you settle on as being the best for the deburring job?

 

 

[Marty_d]

2. Why did you need to buy two cleco pliers?

I wish I'd bought 2 when I ordered mine - simply because sometimes I'll spend half an hour searching for the damn thing, when I can't remember where I left it last.

 

 

[MajorTom]

I wish I'd bought 2 when I ordered mine - simply because sometimes I'll spend half an hour searching for the damn thing, when I can't remember where I left it last.

Best thing about buying two...If you by two, just in case you don't find the first, you will never have to look for even the first one ... ;-)

I have already used all my 350 copper clecos, when assembling the wing skins. And I think you need minimum 50 silver clecos to get perfect trailing edges.

 

 

[mcrowley]

Sometimes skins don't lay flat against each other after riveting...I built this easy tool to bent the edge of the upper sheet a little. It works great and you don't even need to disassemble the skins compleatly.

[ATTACH]50279[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]50280[/ATTACH][ATTACH]50278[/ATTACH]

Would you happen to have a short video clip demonstrating the use of the tool? :-)

 

 

[IBob]

I have a few questions about your helpful tool thread:1. With more experience, do you think that these cleco numbers were about right?

2. Why did you need to buy two cleco pliers?

 

3. Did you go for a metric or imperial stepped drill?

 

4. At which outlet did you obtain the rivets and rivet squeeze locally?

 

5. Which emery wheel did you settle on as being the best for the deburring job?

Hi Hank.

 

1. Yes to the clekos:

 

I used all the copper ones on the S rear fuse.

 

And I was advised every 3rd hole for the silver ones (trailing edge solid riveting) and that worked fine too.

 

I think I used all the black ones on the fuse too.

 

No doubt you can get by with less, but this seems like a good number.

 

2. The cleko pliers were $8 each. And they do periodically hide themselves, (as you will discover) so two sets has worked well.

 

3. I have 2 stepped drills on loan, both imperial but with different steps. You don't use these very much, but when you do, they are exactly the right tool. As I recall, 1 hole in stabiliser, then several in wing frames for fuel lines etc and strobe wiring, and I expect more in the forward fuse.

 

You are dealing with a metric kit, but bolts and fittings tend to be imperial (as you will also discover!). Fortunately, exact size has not so far been crucial.

 

Also handy for deburring existing holes (with care). Since you are only drilling al, the cheap TradeMe ones should be fine.

 

4. Rivet squeezes were borrowed at the airfield, correct sized snap (die) purchased from Aircraft Spruce, rivets from Aviation & Performance Parts Ltd, Auckland.

 

5. I haven't used abrasive wheels, but if I were starting again, I would. I used the red Scotchbrite abrasive pads from the local auto paint supply store.

 

Use of abrasive pads does give a very nice clean edge; and wheels would be quicker.

 

In my amateur opinion, deburring etc may be done for several reasons:

 

To reduce vulnerability to stress cracking at various points.

 

To allow parts to fit flush together.

 

To give better paint adhesion at edges.

 

As good general workshop practise.

 

For cosmetic reasons.

 

For an aircraft like the Savannah, I think there is some happy medium in all this: below that point you end up with a rough build, in some respects. Beyond that point, it becomes a matter of what the builder feels is acceptable to him.

 

And I definitely think you can make things worse, not better, especially at inner corners of bends and folds; also by excessive deburring of rivet holes resulting in bevelled hole edges.

 

 

[MajorTom]

Would you happen to have a short video clip demonstrating the use of the tool? :-)

Have no time to make a video yet. Still busy cursing over this nasty wing tank installation. No seriously, I can't remember using such language for a long time.

This bending stuff was not exactly my idea. I got inspiration from this EAA video Flanging Lightening Holes with the

 

The tool itself is a quick make from some scrap metal maybe 2cm by 15cm by 1,5mm. Bent on both sides then cut to achive the desired bent distance. ( 4 mm and 8mm ) All edges are rounded and smooted carefully!!! In the middle goes a peace of ply wood, fastend by 2 bolts. You just put the tool betwen the skins and bent a little, them move forward half an inch forward an repeat. Its fast and easy, you won't see steps. If you think more is needed, make a second run.

 

Richard seems to have a roler tool to do some edge bending on unassembled sheets. ...

 

 

[IBob]

Have no time to make a video yet. Still busy cursing over this nasty wing tank installation. No seriously, I can't remember using such language for a long time.This bending stuff was not exactly my idea. I got inspiration from this EAA video Flanging Lightening Holes with the

 

The tool itself is a quick make from some scrap metal maybe 2cm by 15cm by 1,5mm. Bent on both sides then cut to achive the desired bent distance. ( 4 mm and 8mm ) All edges are rounded and smooted carefully!!! In the middle goes a peace of ply wood, fastend by 2 bolts. You just put the tool betwen the skins and bent a little, them move forward half an inch forward an repeat. Its fast and easy, you won't see steps. If you think more is needed, make a second run.

 

Richard seems to have a roler tool to do some edge bending on unassembled sheets. ...

Definitely an excellent addition to the toolkit...and one I could have used. Thanks for that, Major T.

As for the tanks...maybe it's some sort of 'rite of passage'?

 

 

[eightyknots]

Have no time to make a video yet. Still busy cursing over this nasty wing tank installation. No seriously, I can't remember using such language for a long time.This bending stuff was not exactly my idea. I got inspiration from this EAA video Flanging Lightening Holes with the

 

The tool itself is a quick make from some scrap metal maybe 2cm by 15cm by 1,5mm. Bent on both sides then cut to achive the desired bent distance. ( 4 mm and 8mm ) All edges are rounded and smooted carefully!!! In the middle goes a peace of ply wood, fastend by 2 bolts. You just put the tool betwen the skins and bent a little, them move forward half an inch forward an repeat. Its fast and easy, you won't see steps. If you think more is needed, make a second run.

 

Richard seems to have a roler tool to do some edge bending on unassembled sheets. ...

 

Definitely an excellent addition to the toolkit...and one I could have used. Thanks for that, Major T.As for the tanks...maybe it's some sort of 'rite of passage'?

Does ICP ask for the lightening holes to be flanged with a Bob Stick like this (as the Bear Hawk designer insisted) or is this a nice-thing-to-do exercise?

 

 

[MajorTom]

Does ICP ask for the lightening holes to be flanged with a Bob Stick like this (as the Bear Hawk designer insisted) or is this a nice-thing-to-do exercise?

No, they are done fine from factory. The video was just for explaning the procedure.

 

 

[MajorTom]

Does anybody know this little tool??? It allowes to pull a rivet, that is to deep hidden in a corner. You can pull at an angle and still got the rivet head tight on the skin. I have seen it in an EAA video.

 

 

 

[eightyknots]

Does anybody know this little tool??? It allowes to pull a rivet, that is to deep hidden in a corner. You can pull at an angle and still got the rivet head tight on the skin. I have seen it in an EAA video.[ATTACH]50472[/ATTACH]

Perhaps this is not commercially available. The tool looks 'home made'.